An Islamic Response to Pope Benedict XVI 1

An Islam­ic Response to Pope Bene­dict XVI

Mus­lims all around the world were upset and out­raged at the recent inci­dent involv­ing Pope Bene­dict XVI. The con­tro­ver­sy began on 12 Sep­tem­ber 2006, when he pre­sent­ed a lec­ture enti­tled Faith, Rea­son and the Uni­ver­si­ty — Mem­o­ries and Reflec­tions” at the Uni­ver­si­ty of Regens­burg in Ger­many, where he was pre­vi­ous­ly a pro­fes­sor of the­ol­o­gy. With­out refut­ing or repu­di­at­ing it, he had quot­ed from the Byzan­tine emper­or Manuel II Ple­o­lo­gus who was report­ed to have said thus :

    Show me just what Muham­mad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhu­man, such as his com­mand to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

Cer­tain­ly there is no rea­son why a Mus­lim who knows his reli­gion would not be out­raged at the words cit­ed from a mediev­el emper­or, and it is jus­ti­fi­ably so. What we would like to know is, how could Pope Bene­dict XVI have quot­ed from a pow­er-crazy emper­or whose hos­til­i­ty towards Islam was well-known ? As the per­son con­sid­ered as the Vic­ar of Christ” lead­ing a major­i­ty of the world’s Chris­t­ian pop­u­la­tion who ascribe to the Catholic faith, the Pope should be pro­mot­ing peace and har­mo­ny between the two faiths.

The Pope should know bet­ter than to ascribe Islam to the stereo­typ­i­cal image of vio­lence and the sword. It was the his­tor­i­cal schol­ar De Lacy O’Leary who refut­ed this imagery by stat­ing that :

His­to­ry makes it clear how­ev­er, that the leg­end of fanat­i­cal Mus­lims sweep­ing through the world and forc­ing Islam at the point of the sword upon con­quered races is one of the most fan­tas­ti­cal­ly absurd myth that his­to­ri­ans have ever repeat­ed.” De Lacy O’Leary, Islam at the Cross­roads, p. 8

In the eleventh cen­tu­ry, the West­ern Chris­tians thought the time had come to turn the tables of his­to­ry. The Cru­sades were launched with dis­as­trous con­se­quences to Chris­t­ian-Mus­lim and Mus­lim-Chris­t­ian relations.His pre­de­ces­sor, Pope Urban II, was the per­son who first coined the term holy war” (which, it should be not­ed, is alien to Mus­lim thought) and who first issued the edict incit­ing the Chris­t­ian gov­ern­ments of Europe to wage war against the Mus­lims in the Mid­dle East.

In his speech, Pope Urban II called for col­o­niza­tion of the Mus­lim world :

For you must has­ten to car­ry aid to your brethren dwelling in the East, who need your help, which they have often asked. For the Turks, a Per­sian peo­ple, have attacked them I exhort you with earnest prayer — not I, but God — that, as her­alds of Christ, you urge men by fre­quent exhor­ta­tion, men of all ranks, knights as well as foot sol­diers, rich as well as poor, to has­ten to exter­mi­nate this vile race from the lands of your brethren Christ com­mands it. And if those who set out thith­er should lose their lives on the way by land, or in cross­ing the sea, or in fight­ing the pagans, their sins shall be remit­ted. Oh what a dis­grace, if a race so despised, base, and the instru­ment of demons, should so over­come a peo­ple endowed with faith in the all-pow­er­ful God, and resplen­dent with the name of Christ. Let those who have been accus­tomed to make pri­vate war against the faith­ful car­ry on to a suc­cess­ful issue a war against the infi­dels. Let those who for a long time have been rob­bers now become sol­diers of Christ. Let those who fought against broth­ers and rel­a­tives now fight against these bar­bar­ians. Let them zeal­ous­ly under­take the jour­ney under the guid­ance of the Lord.August C. Krey, The First Cru­sade : The Accounts of Eye Wit­ness­es and Par­tic­i­pants (Glouces­ter, Mass­a­chu­setts : Peter Smith, 1958)

Pro­fes­sor of His­to­ry, Joel T. Rosen­thal, who con­tributed an arti­cle at Encar­ta Ency­clopae­dia states that :

They knew lit­tle about the Byzan­tine Empire or its reli­gion, East­ern Ortho­dox Chris­tian­i­ty. Few Cru­saders under­stood or had much sym­pa­thy for the East­ern Ortho­dox reli­gion, which did not rec­og­nize the pope, used the Greek lan­guage rather than Latin, and had very dif­fer­ent forms of art and archi­tec­ture. They knew even less about Islam or Mus­lim life. For some the First Cru­sade became an excuse to unleash sav­age attacks in the name of Chris­tian­i­ty on Jew­ish com­mu­ni­ties along the Rhine.Joel T. Rosen­thal, Encar­ta

It should be not­ed that all Jews, Mus­lims and non-Catholic Chris­tians were mas­sa­cred dur­ing the Cru­sades, espe­cial­ly dur­ing the con­quest of Jerusalam in the First Cru­sades War. When these right­eous” Cru­saders arrived at Jerusalem, they had no mer­cy on the inhab­i­tants, whether Mus­lims, Jews or their Chris­t­ian brethren. Philip Schaff writes :

The scenes of car­nage which fol­lowed belong to the many dark pages of Jerusalem’s his­to­ry and showed how, in the qual­i­ty of mer­cy, the cru­sad­ing knight was far below the ide­al of Chris­t­ian per­fec­tion. The streets were choked with the bod­ies of the slain. The Jews were burnt with their syn­a­gogues.… As if to enhance the spec­ta­cle of piti­less bar­bar­i­ty, Sara­cen (i.e. Mus­lims) pris­on­ers were forced to clear the streets of the dead bod­ies and blood to save the city from pesti­lence. They wept and trans­port­ed the dead bod­ies out of Jerusalem,” is the heart­less state­ment of Robert the Monk. … They cut down with the sword,” said William [arch­bish­op] of Tyre, every one whom they found in Jerusalem, and spared no one. The vic­tors were cov­ered with blood from head to foot.” In the next breath, speak­ing of the devo­tion of the Cru­saders, the arch­bish­op adds, It was a most affect­ing sight which filled the heart with holy joy to see the peo­ple tread the holy places in the fer­vor of an excel­lent devo­tion.“Philip Schaff, His­to­ry of the Chris­t­ian Church, Vol­ume V, Chap­ter 7

Thus we should ask our­selves, by what cri­te­ria must this act be judged apart from call­ing it evil and inhu­man”, as the Pope did for Islam ?

The Pope should also look at the his­to­ry of the Span­ish Inqui­si­tion which was issued (yet again!) by anoth­er pre­de­ces­sor of the cur­rent Pope, Pope Lucius III. This papal bull was car­ried out to the let­ter under the rule of the Catholic King Fer­di­nand and Queen Isabel­la, who drove thou­sands of Mus­lims and Jews out of the Iber­ian Penin­su­la at the fall of Grana­da in 1492, either by expelling them or forcibly con­vert­ing them to Chris­tian­i­ty. P. de Gayan­gos writes regard­ing Ximenes :

As a result of his endeav­ours, it is report­ed that on 8th Decem­ber 1499 about three thou­sand Moors were bap­tized by him and a lead­ing mosque in Grana­da was con­vert­ed into a church. Con­verts’ were encour­aged to sur­ren­der their Islam­ic books, sev­er­al thou­sands of which were destroyed by Ximenes in a pub­lic bon­fire. A few rare books on med­i­cine were kept aside for the Uni­ver­si­ty of Alcala.P de Gayan­gos, Muham­madan Dynas­ties in Spain”, Vol. II

For eight cen­turies, Islam had been the faith not only of immi­grant Arabs and Berbers but of native Spaniards who were always the major­i­ty. The Inqui­si­tion” made no dif­fer­en­ti­a­tion ; and it brought to an end one of the most glo­ri­ous chap­ters in the his­to­ry of inter-reli­gious liv­ing and co-operation.

It is also a his­tor­i­cal fact that the Catholic Church in Ger­many and Italy had a mutu­al agree­ment with Hitler and Mus­soli­ni, and they were nev­er con­demned in their respec­tive coun­tries even though the offi­cial” posi­tion of the Church was that Nazism is explic­it­ly con­demned. It is also a fact that there are pho­tographs of Catholic priests, Luther­an min­is­ters, and Catholic bish­ops and car­di­nals with Hitler and even giv­ing the Hitler salute. Both men were respon­si­ble for hein­ious war crimes and geno­cides in their own nations as well as in the Sec­ond World War.

It seems that Chris­tians are fix­at­ed with the image of the Cru­sades and the idea of a holy war”. It was after all George Bush, a born-again Chris­t­ian, in the after­math of the hor­ren­dous Sep­tem­ber 11 attacks on New York who first used the word cru­sade” in response to the 911 attack. This cru­sade,” he said, this war on ter­ror­ism.” Yet again it was twen­ty mil­lion Red Indi­ans who were killed by Chris­tians in the ear­ly his­to­ry of the Unit­ed States. Africans were also kid­napped by these so-call Chris­tians to work in the cot­ton fields of the South and it was only after the Amer­i­can Civ­il War which only then end­ed slav­ery. Even so, dis­crim­i­na­tion of the Afro-Amer­i­cans in North Amer­i­ca per­sist until today.

Despite all the evi­dence above show­ing the ugli­ness of Chris­t­ian his­to­ry, the Pope still choos­es to attack and demean Islam. On the con­trary, there were non-Mus­lims who said good things about Islam. The philos­pher George Bernard Shaw said that :

I have always held the reli­gion of Muham­mad in high esti­ma­tion because of its won­der­ful vital­i­ty. It is the only reli­gion which appears to me to pos­sess that assim­i­lat­ing capac­i­ty to the chang­ing phase of exis­tence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have stud­ied him — the won­der­ful man and in my opin­ion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Sav­ior of Humanity.

I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dic­ta­tor­ship of the mod­ern world he would suc­ceed in solv­ing its prob­lems in a way that would bring it the much need­ed peace and hap­pi­ness : I have proph­e­sied about the faith of Muham­mad that it would be accept­able to the Europe of tomor­row as it is begin­ning to be accept­able to the Europe of today.“The Gen­uine Islam, Vol. 1, No. 81936

Mohan­das K. Gand­hi, the spir­i­tu­al icon of Indi­a’s resis­tance move­ment, said in Young India :

I want­ed to know the best of one who holds today’s undis­put­ed sway over the hearts of mil­lions of mankind.…I became more than con­vinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid sim­plic­i­ty, the utter self-efface­ment of the Prophet, the scrupu­lous regard for his pledges, his intense devo­tion to this friends and fol­low­ers, his intre­pid­i­ty, his fear­less­ness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mis­sion. These and not the sword car­ried every­thing before them and sur­mount­ed every obsta­cle. When I closed the 2nd vol­ume (of the Prophet’s biog­ra­phy), I was sor­ry there was not more for me to read of the great life.”

Michael H. Hart com­ment­ed on the fol­low­ing on why he chose the Prophet Muham­mad at the top of his list :

My choice of Muham­mad to lead the list of the world’s most influ­en­tial per­sons may sur­prise some read­ers and may be ques­tioned by oth­ers, but he was the only man in his­to­ry who was supreme­ly suc­cess­ful on both the reli­gious and sec­u­lar lev­el.” Michael H. Hart, The 100 : A Rank­ing of The Most Influ­en­tial Per­sons in His­to­ry, New York : Hart Pub­lish­ing Com­pa­ny, Inc., 1978, p. 33

Lamar­tine best sums it up by saying :

Philoso­pher, ora­tor, apos­tle, leg­is­la­tor, war­rior, con­queror of ideas, restor­er of ratio­nal dog­mas, of a cult with­out images ; the founder of twen­ty ter­res­tri­al empires and of one spir­i­tu­al empire, that is Muham­mad. As regards all stan­dards by which human great­ness may be mea­sured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?” His­toire De La Turquie, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276 – 277

With all these com­ments by these emi­nent fig­ures of the 20th cen­tu­ry, what rea­son does the Pope have to quote from an igno­rant, bar­bar­ic Byzan­tine emperor ?

Con­clu­sions

The dam­age that the Pope had done, whether con­scious­ly or uncon­scious­ly, have cer­tain­ly reversed the peace-mak­ing efforts and bridg­ing of rela­tions by his pre­de­ces­sor, who was also the first Pope to step foot into a mosque when he vis­it­ed the Umayyad Mosque in Dam­as­cus and paid a vis­it to the grave of the Prophet Yahya (John the Bap­tist). The cur­rent Pope is nowhere as mag­namious as his pre­de­ces­sor and clear­ly he is try­ing to undo the efforts of the pre­vi­ous Pope.

How­ev­er he should not be igno­rant of facts. Free­dom of expres­sion should not include lies. The Pope should ver­i­fy his facts, as the Qur’an tells us Mus­lims in Surah Huju­rat, 49:6 as follows :

O Peo­ple who Believe ! If any mis­cre­ant brings you some tid­ings, ver­i­fy it, lest you unknow­ing­ly cause suf­fer­ing to some peo­ple, and then remain repent­ing for what you did.”

And only God knows best ! An Islamic Response to Pope Benedict XVI 2Endmark

50 Comments

  1. You would not have the above said things if you lived by the New Tes­ta­ment either. If you enjoy any kind of free­dom in your coun­try, bear in mind that it is not because of New Tes­ta­ment. If women in your coun­try feel equal­i­ty with men, it is because they fought for it, they shed their blood and tears for it. Racism and geno­cide have been the monop­o­lies of the Bible and its fol­low­ers. No oth­er scrip­tures had showed the audac­i­ty to play with that fire. eye-for-an-eye” ide­ol­o­gy was first coined by no oth­er scrip­ture than your Holy” Bible.”

    chris­tIAN­I­TY IS DESPERATE RELIGION !

    she LIES

    This is def­i­nite­ly the weird­est ques­tion I have ever got­ten about this chap­ter. Of course, even if cor­rect these claims have noth­ing to do with my the­o­ry. But these claims are absurd. This is what the Greek of 1 Corinthi­ans says :

    As in all the church­es of the holy, let the women keep qui­et in the church­es, for it is not per­mit­ted for them to speak, and let them be sub­dued, as the law also says. But if any want to learn, let them ask their own hus­band at home, for it is shame­ful for a woman to speak in a church. Did the word of God come from you, or to you alone ? If any­one thinks he is a prophet or a spir­i­tu­al man, let him acknowl­edge that what I write to you is the com­mand­ment of the Lord. (1 Cor. 14:33 – 36)

    There is no plau­si­ble log­i­cal or gram­mat­i­cal basis for think­ing 1 Corinthi­ans 14:34 – 35 is a quo­ta­tion, or any­thing Paul is argu­ing against. It is not a ques­tion. To the con­trary, this is plain­ly and beyond all rea­son­able doubt what he is assert­ing as instruc­tions to the Corinthi­ans (see the par­al­lel con­struc­tion : 1 Cor. 14:13, 14:26, 14:27, 14:28, 14:29, 14:30, 14:34, 14:35, 14:37). In fact, he says these instruc­tions are the com­mand­ments of God (14:37), and not just his own opin­ions (in con­trast to 1 Cor. 7:12 & 7:25). He repeat­ed­ly uses the imper­a­tive (and once uses the indica­tive of per­mis­sion, but nev­er the sub­junc­tive or opta­tive), and there is no verb putting any of this in indi­rect dis­course. So this pas­sage can nev­er be under­stood as a quo­ta­tion. Nor is any argu­ment against his com­mand­ment to be found here.

    Many trans­la­tions ren­der verse 14:36 as What ? Did the Word of God come out from you ? Or did it come unto you only?” but the word What” is not in the Greek. I’ve also seen some exegetes try to inter­pret the mas­cu­line in 14:36 as a rebuke to men in the church, but the mas­cu­line was the inclu­sive case, and thus could include men and women, and there is no indi­rect state­ment here to rebuke any­one for. Instead, with 14:36 Paul is lead­ing into verse 14:37. Paul is say­ing Do you claim to be an author­i­ty ? I’m telling you, these are the com­mand­ments of God!” In oth­er words, Paul is being very adamant that vers­es 14:33 – 35 are (as with every­thing that came before them) instruc­tions the Corinthi­ans ought to be fol­low­ing. Though some think there is a con­tra­dic­tion here between this and Paul’s insis­tance that women pray and proph­esy under a veil in 1 Corinthi­ans 11:5, he does not say there that this was allowed in church. Here, he is adamant : in church, this was not to be tol­er­at­ed at all.

    So, too, 1 Tim­o­thy, which says, Let a woman learn in silence, in total sub­mis­sion. I do not per­mit a woman to teach or to have author­i­ty over a man, but to be in silence” (1 Tim. 2:11 – 12), because Eve led Adam to sin (2:13 – 15), the impli­ca­tion being that women will lead men to sin if they are allowed to teach or give orders to men, there­fore they should shut the hell up and obey their hus­bands (Col. 3:18, Eph. 5:22 – 24 & 5:33 ; echoed by Titus 2:3 – 5 & 1 Pet. 3:1 – 6). So while this clear­ly does say women must not dom­i­nate men, it also says they are to sit in silence and nev­er pre­sume to teach any­one any­thing. In oth­er words, he is say­ing they should shut up – unless what they have to say is total­ly sub­mis­sive to the will of male authorities.

  2. Anoth­er great Response to the pope’s remarks on islam by our great schol­ars may allah perserve them

    Refut­ing the Pope

    The Clear Mes­sage in Refu­ta­tion of the Words of the Leader of the Christians

    http://​www​.mar​i​fah​.net/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​s​/​p​o​p​e​-​f​a​w​d​a​h​.​pdf

  3. Lets keep it real, the cru­sades were not some­thing to be proud of, they were anoth­er case of europe wishin to dom­i­nate the world…Whatever the cru­saders did was a per­ver­sion of chris­tian­i­ty it went against the ten com­mand­ments stat­ing not to kill and to love thy neigh­bour etc, but the cru­sades hap­pend along time ago, lets focus on the present ; the gas­ing of whole towns by Sud­dam Hus­sein (a mus­lim) women, men and chil­dren (his own mus­lim peo­ple), the bomb­ing of the twin tow­ers that killed thou­sands of inno­cent peo­ple along with the bomb­ings of the madrid trains, the bar­ley bomb­ings, the lon­don bomb­ings (that killed mus­lims, chris­tians and jew­sn alike), the killing of inno­cent nuns, the bea­head­ing of catholic school chil­dren in ASIA, the burn­ing of chruch­es across the mus­lim world, pak­istani chris­t­ian per­se­cu­tion, the per­se­cu­tion of chris­tians in Eritrea (being held in met­al con­tain­ers with lit­tle air) irans want to extin­guish the isre­ali state, the per­se­cu­tion of mus­lim con­verts in afgan­istan and the mus­lim world… the list goes on… iso­lat­ed events car­ried out by those who dont under­stand islam, fun­da­men­tal­ist ? ???????????? i think not- if so then islam has a lot of peo­ple who dont under­stand their reli­gion. Mus­lims need to stop cling­ing on to the cru­sades, because their attacks on chrit­ian coun­tries (the west­ern world) and chris­t­ian peo­ple is exact­ly the same as the cru­sades in fact worse as they still havent seen the errors of their ways and per­sist in threat­en­ing the world with threats of anoth­er holo­caust, and 911 so maybe mus­lims should start focus­ing on the present day… and their own actions eg (jihad) .

  4. A.R. said on 4 Novem­ber 2006:“You ignored the EVIDENCE, which the broth­er pro­vid­ed (http://​www​.bis​mikaal​lahu​ma​.org/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​s​/​2006​/​a​n​-​i​s​l​a​m​i​c​-​r​e​s​p​o​n​s​e​-​t​o​-​p​o​p​e​-​b​e​n​e​d​i​c​t​-​x​v​i​/​#​c​o​m​m​e​n​t​-​2862) And may I ask why ? The verse lit­er­al­ly means God fight them” and not God kill them” as Shamoun who does not know Ara­bic claims. This fight­ing” of course is not lit­er­al. Like one fights against a dis­ease etc.”

    I have pret­ty much ignored the evi­dence your Broth­er pro­vid­ed. But my ques­tion remains valid — of the three main trans­la­tions I have found, they picked a trans­la­tion more in line with Shamoun’s claims than any­one else’s. Why is that ?

    A.R. said on 4 Novem­ber 2006:“Furthermore even if I agree with you for sake of argu­ment the verse says : GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEMOR GOD FIGHTS THEM” or GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just express­ing his anger over their blasphemy.”

    How do you know ? — and it is worth point­ing out that at least one of those blas­phemies” is fic­tion­al in that Jews do not think Ezra was the Son of God.

    A.R. said on 4 Novem­ber 2006:“The verse NOWHERE says that Chris­tians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the trans­la­tion : May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to under­stand that God is able to destroy any one. He pun­ish­es the guilty with hell-fire and all reli­gions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire.”

    Yes but it is a very short step from call­ing for God to kill some­one and decid­ing ot help God by killing them for them. Arabs do not, after all, get up in the morn­ing and greet their wife by say­ing May God destroy you”. They do say such things about Israel though.

  5. Paak­Maw said on 29 Octo­ber 2006:“Anyway, it seems to me that the dis­cus­sions with you seem to be a tit for a tat”. I cau­tion the Mus­lims to keep away from argu­ing for the sake of argu­ing” (-Ibn Tamiyah).”

    By all means, if you can­not win, do not play. Islam has always relied on con­quest in the past. Do you think that this atti­tude will serve Mus­lims in the present when even in Mus­lim coun­tries they will have to deal with uppi­ty kafirs who will not be silenced by threats ?

    Paak­Maw said on 29 Octo­ber 2006:“I won­der what you have to say about the Malays in Indone­sia and Malaysia being COERCED, in any way using yr fan­tas­tic, and at tines, hilar­i­ous imag­i­na­tion into your imag­i­nar­i­ly ugly world of Islam.”

    I will point out that indeed, Malays and Indone­sians were coerced into becom­ing Mus­lims. Admit­ted­ly in the ear­ly days there were con­ver­sions by exam­ple, by inter-mar­riage (pagans being tol­er­ant and allow­ing Mus­lims to set­tle) and so on. But as soon as Islam took pow­er it spread in Indone­sia as it did every­where else. The Euro­peans turned up in time to save Bali but not Java.

    Paak­Maw said on 29 Octo­ber 2006:“I will try (not very hard) to imag­ine how HeiGou’s fan­tas­tic imag­i­na­tion will work on my ques­tion to him. Tis as follows…

    Paak­Maw said on 29 Octo­ber 2006:”“Introduced by var­i­ous traders and wan­der­ing mys­tics from India, Islam first gained a foothold between the twelfth and fif­teenth cen­turies in coastal regions of Suma­tra, north­ern Java, and Kali­man­tan. Islam prob­a­bly came to these regions in the form of mys­ti­cal Sufi tra­di­tion. Sufism eas­i­ly gained local accep­tance and became syn­the­sized with local customs.

    Paak­Maw said on 29 Octo­ber 2006:“The intro­duc­tion of Islam to the islands was noth­ing oth­er than peace­ful. As Islamized port towns under­mined the wan­ing pow­er of the east Javanese Hindu/​Buddhist Majapahit king­dom in the six­teenth cen­tu­ry, Javanese elites FLED to Bali, where over 2.5 mil­lion peo­ple kept their own ver­sion of Hin­duism alive. Unlike coastal Suma­tra, where Islam was adopt­ed by elites and mass­es alike, part­ly as a way to counter the eco­nom­ic and polit­i­cal pow­er of the Hin­du-Bud­dhist kingdoms.””

    Sure. The intro­duc­tion of Islam was peace­ful in Indone­sia as it was in India itself. But of course Islam soon turned vio­lent when it had the num­bers and Bud­dhism and Hin­duism was more or less destroyed except in a few places like Bali. Well, Bali really.

    What’s your point ?

  6. In Response to HeiGou

    HeiGou said ON 3rd Octo­ber 2006 :

    Hmmm. Three trans­la­tions of the Quran :

    009.030
    YUSUFALI : The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Chris­tians call Christ the son of

    Allah. That is a say­ing from their mouth ; (in this) they but imi­tate what the unbe­liev­ers of old

    used to say. Allah’s curse be on them : how they are delud­ed away from the Truth !
    PICKTHAL : And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The

    Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. They imi­tate the say­ing of

    those who dis­be­lieved of old. Allah (Him­self) fight­eth against them. How per­verse are they !
    SHAKIR : And the Jews say : Uzair is the son of Allah ; and the Chris­tians say : The Messiah

    is the son of Allah ; these are the words of their mouths ; they imi­tate the say­ing of those who dis­be­lieved before ; may Allah destroy them ; how they are turned away!It looks pret­ty much what Shamoun says it does to me. Can you explain why at least two of the three trans­la­tors here got it wrong ?

    MY REPONSE :

    You ignored the EVIDENCE, which the broth­er pro­vid­ed (http://​www​.bis​mikaal​lahu​ma​.org/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​s​/​2006​/​a​n​-​i​s​l​a​m​i​c​-​r​e​s​p​o​n​s​e​-​t​o​-​p​o​p​e​-​b​e​n​e​d​i​c​t​-​x​v​i​/​#​c​o​m​m​e​n​t​-​2862) And may I ask why ? The verse lit­er­al­ly means God fight them” and not God kill them” as Shamoun who does not know Ara­bic claims. This fight­ing” of course is not lit­er­al. Like one fights against a dis­ease etc.

    You ask how the two trans­la­tors sup­pos­ed­ly got it wrong. So do you mean to say that they could not have got it wrong ? May be for the Bible if the dif­fer­ent ver­sions say dif­fer­ent things ALL can be attrib­uted to God but not so in case of the Quran.

    Fur­ther­more even if I agree with you for sake of argu­ment the verse says : GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEMOR GOD FIGHTS THEM” or GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just express­ing his anger over their blasphemy.

    The verse NOWHERE says that Chris­tians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the trans­la­tion : May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to under­stand that God is able to destroy any one. He pun­ish­es the guilty with hell-fire and all reli­gions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire.

    Jesus said :

    Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him WHO IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Gehen­na (hell). (Matthew 10:28-The Bible)

    For details read my response to Mr. Quennel.

    And I guess Shamoun infers from this verse that Islam says Chris­tians should be killed. I don’t under­stand when the verse no where says that and when the verse is talk­ing about God, how can it pret­ty much seem to you what Shamoun says it seems’?

    And if you want to play the how many trans­la­tions say that” game then I would like to show how the dif­fer­ent trans­la­tors trans­lat­ed this verse :

    Let me first quote the com­plete verse :

    [009:030] The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Chris­tians call Christ the Son of God. That is a say­ing from their mouth ; (in this) they but imi­tate what the unbe­liev­ers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them : how they are delud­ed away from the Truth !
    From : http://​www​.quransearch​.com 1.Yusuf Ali : …God’s curse be on them, 2. Dr. Munir Mun­shey : Allah’s curse is upon them ! 3. Sher Ali : ALLAH’s curse be on them ! 4. Shakir : may Allah destroy them 5. Pick­thall : Allah (Him­self) fight­eth against them. 6. Sale : May God curse them (lit­er­al­ly : fight against them)! 7. Muham­mad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan : Allahs Curse be on them, 8. Palmer : God fight them ! 9. Arber­ry : God assail them ! 10. Khal­i­fa : GOD con­demns them. 11. Rod­well : God do bat­tle with them !

    Sad­ly only ONE trans­la­tion (that of Shakir) out of the ELEVEN that I have men­tioned is some­what near to Shamoun’s but even that is NOT the same as his !

    I’ll try to respond to the oth­er posts of yours as soon as pos­si­ble, Inshallah.

  7. In Response to HeiGou

    HeiGou said ON 3rd Octo­ber 2006 :

    Hmmm. Three trans­la­tions of the Quran :

    009.030
    YUSUFALI : The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Chris­tians call Christ the son of

    Allah. That is a say­ing from their mouth ; (in this) they but imi­tate what the unbe­liev­ers of old

    used to say. Allah’s curse be on them : how they are delud­ed away from the Truth !
    PICKTHAL : And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The

    Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. They imi­tate the say­ing of

    those who dis­be­lieved of old. Allah (Him­self) fight­eth against them. How per­verse are they !
    SHAKIR : And the Jews say : Uzair is the son of Allah ; and the Chris­tians say : The Messiah

    is the son of Allah ; these are the words of their mouths ; they imi­tate the say­ing of those who dis­be­lieved before ; may Allah destroy them ; how they are turned away!It looks pret­ty much what Shamoun says it does to me. Can you explain why at least two of the three trans­la­tors here got it wrong ?

    MY REPONSE :

    You ignored the EVIDENCE, which the broth­er pro­vid­ed (http://​www​.bis​mikaal​lahu​ma​.org/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​s​/​2006​/​a​n​-​i​s​l​a​m​i​c​-​r​e​s​p​o​n​s​e​-​t​o​-​p​o​p​e​-​b​e​n​e​d​i​c​t​-​x​v​i​/​#​c​o​m​m​e​n​t​-​2862) And may I ask why ? The verse lit­er­al­ly means God fight them” and not God kill them” as Shamoun who does not know Ara­bic claims. This fight­ing” of course is not lit­er­al. Like one fights against a dis­ease etc.

    You ask how the two trans­la­tors sup­pos­ed­ly got it wrong. So do you mean to say that they could not have got it wrong ? May be for the Bible if the dif­fer­ent ver­sions say dif­fer­ent things ALL can be attrib­uted to God but not so in case of the Quran.

    Fur­ther­more even if I agree with you for sake of argu­ment the verse says : GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEMOR GOD FIGHTS THEM” or GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just express­ing his anger over their blasphemy.

    The verse NOWHERE says that Chris­tians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the trans­la­tion : May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to under­stand that God is able to destroy any one. He pun­ish­es the guilty with hell-fire and all reli­gions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire.

    Jesus said :

    Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him WHO IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Gehen­na (hell). (Matthew 10:28-The Bible)

    For details read my response to Mr. Quennel.

    And I guess Shamoun infers from this verse that Islam says Chris­tians should be killed. I don’t under­stand when the verse no where says that and when the verse is talk­ing about God, how can it pret­ty much seem to you what Shamoun says it seems’?

    And if you want to play the how many trans­la­tions say that” game then I would like to show how the dif­fer­ent trans­la­tors trans­lat­ed this verse :

    Let me first quote the com­plete verse :

    [009:030] The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Chris­tians call Christ the Son of God. That is a say­ing from their mouth ; (in this) they but imi­tate what the unbe­liev­ers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them : how they are delud­ed away from the Truth !
    From : http://​www​.quransearch​.com 1.Yusuf Ali : …God’s curse be on them, 2. Dr. Munir Mun­shey : Allah’s curse is upon them ! 3. Sher Ali : ALLAH’s curse be on them ! 4. Shakir : may Allah destroy them 5. Pick­thall : Allah (Him­self) fight­eth against them. 6. Sale : May God curse them (lit­er­al­ly : fight against them)! 7. Muham­mad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan : Allahs Curse be on them, 8. Palmer : God fight them ! 9. Arber­ry : God assail them ! 10. Khal­i­fa : GOD con­demns them. 11. Rod­well : God do bat­tle with them !

    Sad­ly only ONE trans­la­tion (that of Shakir) out of the ELEVEN that I have men­tioned is some­what near to Shamoun’s but even that is NOT the same as his !
    I
    ll try to respond to the oth­er posts of yours as soon as pos­si­ble, Inshallah.

  8. In response to AntiDogma

    Anti­Dog­ma said on 21 Sep­tem­ber 2006 :

    have noticed one thing. You enjoy quot­ing the Old Tes­ta­ment, when Christ made
    sweep­ing reforms to change those very things.

    MY RESPONSE :

    No. Jesus said he came not to change any thing and that the one who does not fol­low even a sin­gle com­mand­ment is LEAST in the King­dom of heaven !
    Nowhere does Jesus say that he came to annul the OT !

    5:17 Don’t think that I came to abol­ish the law or the prophets. I did­n’t come to abol­ish, but to ful­fill. 5:18 For most cer­tain­ly, I tell you, until heav­en and earth pass away, not even one small­est let­ter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accom­plished. 5:19 Who­ev­er, there­fore, shall break ONE OF THE LEAST COMMANDMENTS and teach­es oth­ers to do so, shall be called LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ; but who­ev­er shall do and teach them shall be called GREAT in the King­dom of Heav­en. (Matthew 5:17 – 19- The Bible)

    Fur­ther­more I would not believe in any reli­gion if one part of it is vio­lent and the oth­er is non-vio­lent un-like how you believe. And I will not believe in any reli­gion sup­pos­ing that all reli­gions are foes of women and idol­aters but my reli­gion is the least so, so let me believe in it, that’s fool­ish. If Jesus is God why has he been giv­ing all those bru­tal com­mand­ments in the OT?? The same God first says to kill women and chil­dren dur­ing wars and the same sup­pos­ed­ly says some­thing dif­fer­ent lat­er. If the OT is bad who put all those bad things” in the OT????

    What about this com­mand­ment of Jesus (p b u h):

    15:3 He answered them, Why do you also dis­obey the com­mand­ment of God because of your tra­di­tion ? 15:4 For God com­mand­ed, Hon­or your father and your moth­er,’* and, He who speaks evil of father or mother,

    LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH*

    15:5 But you say, Who­ev­er may tell his father or his moth­er, What­ev­er help you might oth­er­wise have got­ten from me is a gift devot­ed to God,” 15:6 he shall not hon­or his father or moth­er.’ YOU HAVE MADE THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD VOID because of your tra­di­tion. 15:7 You hypocrites…(Matthew 15:3 – 7 –The Bible)

    So Jesus (p b u h) is report­ed to con­demn the Jews for not killing peo­ple who dis obey their par­ents. I don’t think chil­dren should be KILLED for dis obey­ing their parents !

    Fur­ther­more in the book of Rev­e­la­tion Jesus p b u h (?) says :

    2:20 But I have this against you, that you tol­er­ate your woman, Jezebel, who calls her­self a prophet­ess. She teach­es and seduces my ser­vants to com­mit sex­u­al immoral­i­ty, and to eat things sac­ri­ficed to idols. 2:21 I gave her time to repent, but she refus­es to repent of her sex­u­al immoral­i­ty. 2:22 Behold, I will throw her into a bed, and those who com­mit adul­tery with her into great oppres­sion, unless they repent of her works. 2:23WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH,(Revelation 2:20 – 23- The Bible)

    Why are the chil­dren pun­ished for the sin of the mother ?

    Anti­Dog­ma said :

    For the unini­ti­at­ed, the Bible is divid­ed into 2 parts : Old Tes­ta­ment (Before Christ) and
    New Tes­ta­ment (After Christ).If we lived by the Old Tes­ta­ment, we would not have wom­ens rights, free edu­ca­tion for all, we would have racism, geno­cide and eye-for-an-eye” ide­olo­gies. Oh wait.. that sounds like Islam­ic ide­olo­gies ! Christ’s mes­sage was to change all that.

    MY REPONSE :

    If Jesus is God then the OT is his word too!!! Fur­ther­more I don’t see any free edu­ca­tion or women’s rights dis­cussed by Jesus in the NT. Can you show me where ? In fact it is the OT where prophets have dis­cussed some of the women’s rights!!! Jesus did not for­bid the eye for an eye ide­ol­o­gy he just pro­posed some­thing bet­ter and what he pro­posed is indeed bet­ter and Islam says the same thing. Ver­i­ly the max­im that one Chris­t­ian apol­o­gist quotes anoth­er Chris­t­ian apol­o­gist with­out evi­dence is true. No won­der the Pope is as igno­rant on Islam as you are :

    See : The Quran [005:045] And there­in We pre­scribed for them (the Jews): A life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds retaliation’
    But if any one remits the retal­i­a­tion by way of char­i­ty, it is an act of atone­ment for himself
    Whoso judges not accord­ing to what God has sent down — they are the evildoers.

    And The Quran says :

    Quran [016:126] And if you pun­ish, pun­ish even as you have been afflict­ed with ; and yet assured­ly if you are patient,

    BEING PATIENT IS SURELY BETTER

    [016:127] And be patient ; yet is thy patience only with the help of God

    Quran 42:40
    The rec­om­pense for an injury is an injury equal there­to (in degree):But if a per­son for­gives and makes rec­on­cil­i­a­tion, his reward is due from Allah : for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong.

    Fur­ther­more the Quran says :

    Good­ness and Evil can nev­er be equal.
    REPEL EVIL WITH WHAT IS BETTER
    Then will he between whom and
    YOU WAS ENMITY BECOME AS HE WERE YOUR INITMATE FRIEND ! (Holy Quran 41:34)

    So the above verse gives the mes­sage that Good­ness is not the same as evil. Repel evil with good. This will make ene­mies our friends rather our INTIMATE friends.

    Repel evil with that which is best : We are well acquaint­ed with the things they say. (Quran 23:96)

    The ser­vants of the All-mer­ci­ful are those who walk in the earth mod­est­ly and who, when the igno­rant address them, answer, Peace’ (Quran 25:63)

    These shall be giv­en their wage twice over for that they patient­ly endured, and avert evil with good, and expend of that We have pro­vid­ed them (in the way of God) When they hear idle talk, they turn away from it and say, We have our deeds, and you your deeds. Peace be upon you We desire not the ignorant.’(Quran 28:54 – 55)

    The law is one thing and spir­i­tu­al­i­ty and for­give­ness is anoth­er. If a woman who has been raped comes to court to demand jus­tice what judg­ment will you pass : love thy ene­my ? Repel his evil with good ? Or let him rape you anoth­er time (God for­bid)? Jesus (p b u h) or Muham­mad (p b u h) EVER indent­ed this from such verses.

    Fur­ther­more unlike your belief I don’t believe that God allowed geno­cides in the past and now he does not. In fact the eter­nal law of Islam on MURDER was first announced to the Chil­dren of Israel :

    There­fore We pre­scribed for the Chil­dren of Israel that whoso slays any human being unless it be a per­son guilty of manslaugh­ter, or of spread­ing dis­or­ders in the land shall be as if he had slain mankind alto­geth­er ; And whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has giv­en life to mankind alto­geth­er. Our Mes­sen­gers have already come to them with the clear signs ; then many of them there­after com­mit excess­es in the earth. (Quran 5:32)

    No doubt your claims of racism and geno­cide being Islam­ic ide­olo­gies are false too. Where does the Bible say any thing sim­i­lar to the verse quot­ed above or the Hadith, which I am just going to quote????

    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no supe­ri­or­i­ty over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any supe­ri­or­i­ty over an Arab ; also a white has no supe­ri­or­i­ty over a black nor a black has any supe­ri­or­i­ty over a white — except by piety and good action. (Muham­mad peace be upon him-in his last ser­mon)- sim­i­lar mes­sage is giv­en in the Holy Quran 49:13 and :

    And their Lord answers them : I waste not the labour (works or deeds) of any that labours among you, be you male or female — the one of you is as the oth­er. …(Quran 3:195)

    The Bibles says : Ezekiel 21:3 and say to her : This is what the LORD says : I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scab­bard and cut off from you both the right­eous and the wicked.4 Because I am going to cut off the right­eous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against every­one from south to north. – While the Quran does not hold that :

    God says : Yet thy Lord would nev­er destroy the cities tyran­nous­ly while as yet their peo­ple were putting things right. (Quran 11:117)

    Yet thy Lord nev­er destroyed the cities until He sent in their moth­er-city a Mes­sen­ger, to recite Our signs unto them ; and We nev­er destroyed the cities, save that their inhab­i­tants were evil­do­ers. (Quran 28:59)

    Where is Racism con­demned in the NT ? In fact Jesus com­pared gen­tiles to dogs in a cer­tain para­ble when a gen­tile woman came to him :

    15:24 But he (Jesus) answered, I was­n’t sent to any­one but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 15:25 But she (the Canaan­ite gen­tile) came and wor­shiped him, say­ing, Lord, help me.” 15:26 But he answered, It is not appro­pri­ate to take the chil­dren’s bread and throw it to the dogs.“15:27 But she said, Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their mas­ters’ table.” 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, Woman, great is your faith ! Be it done to you even as you desire.” And her daugh­ter was healed from that hour. (Matthew 15:24 – 28 – the Bible)

    Plus women are not sub­ju­gat­ed in Islam. If you accept they are sub­ju­gat­ed in the OT then you should aban­don Chris­tian­i­ty because even the OT is the word of the same One God isn’t it ?

    Anti­Dog­ma said :

    When talk­ing about the cru­sades, remem­ber that the cru­sades were to keep the Mus­lims out of Europe. The cru­sades occured over 1000 years ago between Chris­tians and Mus­lims. Just 5 years ago, I saw Mus­lims ter­ror­ists crash­ing aero­planes into build­ings. I do not see Chris­tians teror­rists doing the same. After 1000 years, what has changed ?

    MY REPONSE :

    So are you jus­ti­fy­ing the cru­sades ? Even I can say remem­ber the 911 attacks were a retal­i­a­tion for the Amer­i­can aggres­sion against the Iraqis and for her sup­port of the Israelis and Indi­ans who killed Mus­lims” but stat­ing the rea­sons behind the ter­ror­ists, which made them, attack Amer­i­ca does not jus­ti­fy what they did. Using pseu­do-revi­sion­ist his­to­ry books can­not cov­er up the truth. These are even less worth than those con­spir­a­cy the­o­ries which keep com­ing up. Which also say that Amer­i­cans car­ried out the 911 attacks. The Con­spir­a­cy The­o­rists at least present some proof of what they say and what they say is yet not proved but debat­able. But the revi­sion­ist his­to­ry books on the Cru­sades like those of Thomas F. Madden
    are obvi­ous­ly writ­ten to cov­er up truth with false­hood and their use of deceit is quite appar­ent. I will be refut­ing Mr. Heigou’s posts as soon as pos­si­ble and I will try to shed some light on this issue as well. The Cru­saders have com­mit­ted the most hor­ren­dous crimes human­i­ty has ever known. In fact the reli­gion in the name of which most peo­ple have ever been killed is Chris­tian­i­ty. But do not judge Chris­tian­i­ty by its mis-guid­ed fol­low­ers nor Islam by its mis-guid­ed followers.

    Chris­tians also try to present anoth­er excuse for the cru­sades that : well they were over more than a 1000 years ago. No body doubts that but the point is that the Bible can be and has been used for mak­ing peo­ple com­mit such hor­ren­dous crimes as the cru­saders, the Chris­t­ian rulers and Hitler com­mit­ted. And those crimes, which have been com­mit­ted in the Abu Gharaib prison (http://​en​.wikipedia​.org/​w​i​k​i​/​A​b​u​_​G​h​r​a​i​b​_​t​o​r​t​u​r​e​_​a​n​d​_​p​r​i​s​o​n​e​r​_​a​b​u​se/ Read the things which the sol­diers said to the pris­on­ers) and else­where in Bagh­dad (seri­ous­ly I have not seen any so-called Mus­lim’ ter­ror­ist doing that) and see how some Chris­tians’ sup­port the Israeli (ter­ror­ists I must say http://​news​.bbc​.co​.uk/​1​/​h​i​/​w​o​r​l​d​/​m​i​d​d​l​e​_​e​a​s​t​/​1969542​.​stm ) just because they think Israel is land which God has promised to Jews. And that God’s proph­esy must be ful­filled whether women or chil­dren die ! It is safe to call such peo­ple as Chris­t­ian’ ter­ror­ists too and that is pure reli­gious ter­ror­ism ! I’ll be dis­cussing all I said here in some detail with prop­er quotes from his­to­ri­ans in my respons­es to Mr. Heigou as soon as possible.

    But it must be kept in mind that I do not want to judge Chris­tian­i­ty by its mis-guid­ed fol­low­ers nor Islam by its mis-guid­ed fol­low­ers. I have deep regards and respect for the Chris­tians, athe­ists, Jews etc. who protest for us in their coun­tries. Who protest­ed against the Iraq war, the Israeli aggres­sion on Lebanon etc. While here we could nev­er do the same for them.

  9. In response to Quennel

    QUENNEL SAID on 18 Sep­tem­ber 2006 :
    Who cares about Mus­lims being offend­ed. Islam isn’t above crit­i­cism just because Mus­lims don’t want Non-Mus­lims say any­thing bad about it.

    MY RESPONSE :
    It’s all about how you say things. Some­times two dif­fer­ent per­sons are say­ing the same thing but one offends you and the oth­er doesn’t. All what the Pope did was state his anti-Islam­ic state­ments in a lec­ture.’ He did not have any one to ques­tion him or to crit­i­cize what he was saying.

    QUENNEL SAID :
    Mus­lims …speak bad about oth­er reli­gions all the time. But do they care if they are offend­ed ? No.

    MY RESPONSE :
    No Mus­lim reli­gious leader or any Mus­lim leader of any Mus­lim state has ever spo­ken any thing BAD against any reli­gion, in front of the whole world. Yes there are Mus­lims who crit­i­cize oth­er reli­gions and there are Chris­tians doing the same too. While we can­not com­pare them to the Pope or oth­er reli­gious lead­ers or heads of states who are sup­posed to be more respon­si­ble and they are sup­posed to know that the whole world lis­tens to what they say.

    Fur­ther­more the major­i­ty of Mus­lims do not crit­i­cize Chris­tian­i­ty or Judaism for the aggres­sion that the fol­low­ers of these two reli­gions com­mit or have com­mit­ted in the past against them.

    Thus, Mus­lims do not blame Judaism itself for injus­tices com­mit­ted by Jews against Pales­tini­ans. Nor do they blame Chris­tian­i­ty per se for the crimes com­mit­ted by Church-sanc­tioned medieval Cru­sades ; for atroc­i­ties com­mit­ted dur­ing the con­quest of Spain by Chris­t­ian armies and the sub­se­quent per­se­cu­tion and expul­sion of Mus­lims ; nor for the hor­rors of the Inqui­si­tion, the St. Bartholomew’s Day Mas­sacre or any num­ber of sim­i­lar tragedies.”

    (Mohammed Al Mas­ry, View­point : His­to­ry dis­pels the lies about Islam, Mid­dle East Times, March 13, 2006, ONLINE SOURCE)

    QUENNEL SAID :
    The Quran speak bad about oth­er reli­gions all the time. But do they care if they are offend­ed ? No.

    MY RESPONSE :
    The Quran not in a sin­gle verse EVER speaks bad about any RELIGION!!’ But yes God in the Quran does con­demn the wrong beliefs and prac­tices of the some PEOPLE who fol­low oth­er reli­gions,’ while at the same time PRAISING those fol­low­ers of the same reli­gions’ who do not hold any wrong belief or who do good deeds!!!!

    Then We sent, fol­low­ing in their foot­steps, Our Mes­sen­gers ; and We sent, fol­low­ing, Jesus son of Mary, and gave unto him the Gospel. And We set in the hearts of those who fol­lowed him ten­der­ness and mercy…”(Quran 57:27)

    And lo ! Of the Peo­ple of the Scrip­ture there are some who believe in God and that which is revealed unto you and that which was revealed unto them, hum­bling them­selves before God. They pur­chase not a tri­fling gain at the price of the rev­e­la­tions of God. Ver­i­ly their reward is with their Lord. Lo ! God is swift to take account.” (Quran 3:199)

    Say : O Peo­ple of the Book ! Come to com­mon terms as between us and you : That we wor­ship none but The One God ; that we asso­ciate no part­ners with him ; that we erect not, from among our­selves, Lords and patrons oth­er than God.” If then they turn back, say ye : Bear wit­ness that we are sub­mit­ted to God’s will” (Quran 3:64)

    Lo ! Those who believe (i.e. Muhammad’s fol­low­ers), and those who are Jews, and Chris­tians, and Sabaeans – Any­one who believes in One God and the Last Day and does good deeds — sure­ly their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them nei­ther shall they grieve. (In the here­after)” (Quran 2:62)

    Sure­ly they that believe (i.e. Muhammad’s fol­low­ers), and those of Jew­ry, and the Sabaeans, and those Chris­tians, Whoso­ev­er believes in God and the Last Day, and works right­eous­ness — no fear shall be on them, nei­ther shall they sor­row.” (Quran 5:69)

    Fur­ther­more one thing is quite clear in the Quran :

    God does not for­bid you from show­ing KINDNESS and DEALING JUSTLY with those who have not fought you for your reli­gion and have not dri­ven you out of your homes. God loves just deal­ers. God for­bids you from mak­ing friends, ONLY THOSE who fight you for (your) Faith, and dri­ve you out of your homes, and sup­port oth­ers in dri­ving you out, those who make such as friends are wrong­do­ers.” (Quran 60:8 – 9) I fail to find such a teach­ing this clear­ly being said any where in the Bible (or if you can point our some verse?)

    God warns his cre­ation and he has to tell us that we are wrong if we are wrong. God also express­es his anger if he is angry over some beliefs or over some wrong actions of his cre­ation. God has to tell the peo­ple that he would pun­ish them for cer­tain acts of theirs. God has to tell the peo­ple if he does not like them for cer­tain acts of theirs and that his curse befalls on those peo­ple who know­ing very well that some­thing is bad still prac­tice it ! He has to tell them that God’s anger is upon such kind of peo­ple. He has to tell them that they are going to face a griev­ous pun­ish­ment in the here­after if they do cer­tain things, which are wrong. He has to tell them that they would face destruc­tion in the here­after if they, know­ing some­thing is bad still keep on doing it.

    QUENNEL SAID :
    If your reli­gious book claims to be from God and crit­i­cizes oth­er reli­gions then IN TURN YOUR RELIGION SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED TO SEE IF IT IS ACTUALLY FROM GOD AND SHOULD ALSO BE SCRUTINIZED.

    MY RESPONSE :
    Yes but there is a prop­er way of doing every thing isn’t it ? How­ev­er you do it in this way. You said :

    (Quen­nel said:)If Mus­lims are upset then they should fault their own stu­pid holy book. –

    This is not the right way. Or if you think it is right then you can go on doing what you are doing, how­ev­er for Mus­lims to get offend­ed over HOW you say things is natural.

    Islam’s way of argu­ing is this :

    Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wis­dom and beau­ti­ful admo­ni­tion, and argue with them in the bet­ter way. Sure­ly thy Lord knows very well those who have gone astray from His way, and He knows very well those who are guid­ed.” (Quran 16:125)

    It was by some mer­cy of God that thou (Muham­mad p b u h) wast gen­tle to them ; hadst thou been harsh and hard of heart, they would have scat­tered from about thee. So par­don them, and pray for­give­ness for them, and take coun­sel with them in the affair ; and when thou art resolved, put thy trust in God ; sure­ly God loves those who put their trust.” (Quran 3:159)

    QUENNEL SAID :
    Non-Mus­lims shouldn’t live in a state of fear just because Mus­lims want us to bow down
    and blind­ly accept their reli­gious beliefs.

    MY RESPONSE :
    No, Mus­lims nev­er say that non-Mus­lims should just accept Islam. I only hear Chris­t­ian Mis­sion­ar­ies say­ing that the Mus­lims say so.

    It’s like me ask­ing Quen­nel a ques­tion Have you stopped killing black peo­ple?” The ques­tion implies that Quen­nel does sure­ly kill black peo­ple and he only has to answer whether he has stopped killing them or not. When in the first place Quen­nel nev­er killed any black person!!

    Sim­i­lar­ly if any one says Mus­lims should stop forc­ing oth­ers to Islam must first show which Mus­lim is doing that. You may say the ter­ror­ists are. Well no ! The mis­sion­ar­ies even lie on part of the ter­ror­ists. Osama Bin Laden nev­er start­ed his fight as some holy war for con­vert­ing infi­dels to Islam. The first war in which he ever par­tic­i­pat­ed was that against Rus­sia when she OCCUPIED Afghanistan. He him­self has been say­ing in a lot of audio­tapes you take our secu­ri­ty and we take your secu­ri­ty.” Fur­ther­more when ques­tioned by a jour­nal­ist about why he killed woman and chil­dren when Islam for­bids killing any woman or chil­dren dur­ing war. Osama’s reply was They kill our women and chil­dren, we kill their women and chil­dren (-jour­nal­ist : Hamid Meer- In the Foot­steps of Bin Laden” –CNN). Fur­ther­more you pick up any ter­ror­ist no one has ever claimed to be fight­ing for what the mis­sion­ar­ies or some oth­er peo­ple claim. No won­der the ter­ror­ists quote the Quran out of con­text and the Islam­o­phobes fol­low suit.

    I chal­lenge Quen­nel to show me any verse from the Bible, which speaks on free­dom of reli­gion, a clear un-equiv­o­cal verse that says there should be no com­pul­sion in religion !

    The Quran how­ev­er says that :

    Let there be no com­pul­sion in reli­gion” Quran (2:256)

    And say : The truth is from your Lord, so let him who wills believe, and let him who wills dis­be­lieve ; Quran (18:29)

    And if your Lord had pleased, sure­ly all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them ; will you then force men till they become believ­ers… it is not for a soul to believe except by God’s will per­mis­sion ; and He casts doubt on those who have no under­stand­ing. Quran (10 : 99 – 100)

    And obey God, and obey the Mes­sen­ger ; but if you turn back, the Messenger’s task is only to deliv­er the Clear Mes­sage. (Quran 64:12)

    And they say : We believe in God and in the mes­sen­ger and we obey ; AFTER THAT a par­ty of them turns away /​turns back and these are not believ­ers. When they are sum­moned to God and His mes­sen­ger, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come). They swear by God solemn­ly that, if thou order them, they will go forth … Say : Swear not ; know ye that obe­di­ence (is bet­ter). Lo ! God is Informed of what ye do. Say : Obey God, and obey the Mes­sen­ger : but if ye turn back, he is only respon­si­ble for the duty placed on him­self and ye for that placed on your­selves. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guid­ance. The Mes­sen­ger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Mes­sage) (The Holy Quran 24:47 – 54)

    And those Mus­lims who protest­ed against what the Pope said did not want the Pope to believe in Islam or any­thing like that. Did the Mus­lims start it any way ? It was the Pope who like any oth­er reli­gious fanat­ic accused the Islam and the Prophet of things, which are UN-KNOWN to Islam and the Muslims.

    If some Mus­lim head of the state would have said that what Dan Brown writes in his book The Da Vin­ci Code” is true and if he had con­demned Jesus (may God’s peace be upon him) for his (alleged) rela­tions with Mary Mag­da­lene or if he had con­demned Jesus for killing ani­mals bru­tal­ly (all these events report­ed in gospels which Chris­tians don’t believe in but are writ­ten by faith­ful Chris­tians) wouldn’t Christian’s protest ?

    The Pope has brought up the claim, which reli­gious fanat­ics bring up, and which is un-true and un-known to Islam. There is no such thing as a Holy War (in Ara­bic Holy War would be Harb-ul-Muqad­dasa” a word no where in the Quran or any Hadith) in Islam nor was Islam ever spread by the sword. This myth was spread and is spread by no oth­er than the Chris­t­ian Mis­sion­ar­ies or by those who did not have the com­plete knowl­edge of Islam or his­to­ry or those who relied on un-authen­tic tra­di­tions. All un-biased and open-mind­ed emi­nent his­to­ri­ans deny this. And Chris­tians no that well!!! So they come up with pseu­do-revi­sion­ist his­to­ry books and use deceit and false­hood to cov­er up the truth. I can­not say for sure if they fol­low what Paul said :

    For if the truth of God through my lie abound­ed to his glo­ry, why am I also still judged as a sin­ner ? (Romans 3:7‑The Bible)

    Fur­ther­more I don’t con­sid­er any ter­ror­ist to be a Mus­lim in the first place. And God com­mands me NOT to aid any one who oppress­es oth­ers whether he be a self-pro­claimed Muslim!!!

    …Let not detes­ta­tion for a peo­ple who barred you from the Holy Mosque move you to com­mit aggres­sion. Help one anoth­er to piety and God fear­ing ; DO NOT HELP EACH OTHER to sin, enmi­ty and ran­cour. And fear God ; sure­ly God is ter­ri­ble in ret­ri­bu­tion.” (Quran 5:2)

    Sahih Bukhari Vol­ume 003, Book 043, Hadith Num­ber 624.
    Nar­rat­ed By Anas : Allah’s Apos­tle said, Help your broth­er, whether he is an oppres­sor or he is an oppressed one. Peo­ple asked, O Allah’s Apos­tle ! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppres­sor?” The Prophet said, BY PREVENTING HIM FROM OPRESSING OTHERS.”

    Sunan Abu Dawood Book 036, Hadith Num­ber 5098.
    Nar­rat­ed By Abdul­lah ibn Mas’ud : If any­one helps his peo­ple in an unright­eous cause, he is like a per­son who tries to pull the camel by its tail, which is falling in the well, and he falls along with the camel into the well.”

    QUENNEL SAID :
    In the Pope’s com­ments he claimed that Islam didn’t bring any­thing new and that
    Muham­mad brought inhu­mane prac­tices. He is right and the quran proves it : Say : I AM NO BRINGER OF NEW-FANGLED DOCTRINE AMONG THE MESSENGERS, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I fol­low but that which is revealed to me by inspi­ra­tion ; I am but a Warn­er open and clear.” S. 46:9

    Muham­mad ver­i­fies he didn’t bring any­thing new.

    MY RESPONSE :
    If you are using the above verse as proof for what you are claim­ing then I would like to tell you that the above verse no where says that I am no bringer of NEW DOCTRINE” there are no such words in the Ara­bic. It only says I am no new thing” or I am no inno­va­tion amongst the mes­sen­gers,” which just means that God has been send­ing mes­sen­gers since gen­er­a­tions ; all of them have been mor­tals like the prophet Muham­mad. That is God has been grant­i­ng prophet hood to many men in the past and the prophet Muham­mad (p b u h) has not been grant­ed some­thing new and he is not some­thing, which the world is not aware of (Read Quran 3:144 Muham­mad is naught but a Mes­sen­ger ; Mes­sen­gers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. –) You choose to use Yusuf Ali’s trans­la­tion here just because it suits your pur­pose WOW ! All oth­er trans­la­tors trans­late this verse rightly.

    But I also agree that Islam is noth­ing new and it’s the same MESSAGE that has been giv­en to all the prophets. The same mes­sage that was giv­en to Adam (p b u h). Muham­mad (p b u h) is ver­i­ly not the founder of Islam. All prophets sub­mit­ted to God’s will. All prophets brought the same mes­sage that there is ONLY ONE GOD OF ALL, and that we must be good to his cre­ation. Any thing oth­er than this eter­nal mes­sage any thing new can­not be true!! God has always told us that he is ONE GOD. If some one comes and tells us some­thing new that there are actu­al­ly 3 per­sons which are One God is thus a liar because the truth can­not be new. All prophets, the law and all God’s holy books preach ONLY one God of all.

    Quran 21:25 And We sent nev­er a Mes­sen­ger before thee EXCEPT that We revealed to him, say­ing, There is no god but I ; so serve Me.’

    And Jesus too called the father THE ONLY TRUE God (John 17:3).

    In this spe­cif­ic sense and in this sense alone the prophet did bring noth­ing new. (As Quran 41:43 [actu­al­ly!] testifies)

    The fol­low­ing verse also proves my point :

    They were com­mand­ed NOTHING ELSE than to serve God, mak­ing the reli­gion His sin­cere­ly, men of pure faith, and to per­form the prayer, and pay the alms — that is the reli­gion of the True. (Quran 98:5) —-

    Now this verse does not man that no oth­er com­mand­ments were ever giv­en. It only means that no com­mand­ment OPPOSITE to the com­mand­ments, men­tioned in the verse, was ever giv­en. Sim­i­lar­ly the prophet was giv­en noth­ing-new’ means that he was not giv­en any com­mand­ment that was against or OPPOSITE to the teach­ings of God. He was giv­en the same com­mand­ment, which was giv­en to oth­er prophets. Any prophet who talks of dif­fer­ent gods and dif­fer­ent criteria’s for get­ting into par­adise (like if you believe in the cru­ci­fix­ion you will be saved) which the oth­er prophets have not taught is teach­ing NEW THINGS and thus is NOT God’s prophet.

    But if you are talk­ing in a dif­fer­ent sense than sure­ly the prophet Muham­mad (p b u h) did bring many reforms and did bring cer­tain new laws and empha­sized on cer­tain things on which oth­er prophets could not emphasize.

    In fact the prophet Muham­mad (p b u h) was proph­e­sized as the prophet who would teach many new things’ to the world :

    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye can­not bear them now. How­beit when he, the Spir­it of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth… John 16:12 – 13)

    The prophet Muham­mad made non-reli­gious edu­ca­tion com­pul­so­ry for both men and women. Even for slave-girls’ (Bukhari 46:720)

    No prophet oth­er than the prophet Muham­mad strove to com­plete­ly abol­ish SLAVERY!!!!! Islam strove to end slav­ery grad­u­al­ly and slow­ly. It would take a long arti­cle to describe all the mea­sures tak­en by the prophet to final­ly end it (Quran 90:30 Quran 2:177 Quran 9:60 Quran 4:92, Quran 58:3, Quran 5:89 etc.-these vers­es encour­aged free­ing of slaves. And the dif­fer­ent mea­sures tak­en for abol­ish­ing slav­ery and to uplift the sta­tus of slaves are described here : Bukhari : Book 46 Hadith Num­ber 695, Book 46 Hadith Num­ber 696, Mus­lim Book 15 Hadith Num­ber 4078, Hadith Num­ber 4079, Hadith Num­ber 4084, Hadith Num­ber 4082, Hadith Num­ber 4081,Hadith Num­ber 4088, Hadith Num­ber 4094. Bukhari Book 46 Hadith Num­ber 721. Mus­lim Book 15 Hadith Num­ber 4096, Abu Dawood Hadith No : 5164, Quran 4:36, Tir­mid­hi Hadith no. 3358, Bukhari Book 046 Hadith Num­ber 728, Hadith Mus­nade-e- Ahmad Ibn Han­bal 2:4, Quran 24:32, Quran 4:25, Bukhari Book 52, Hadith Num­ber 255. Abu Dawood Book 006, Hadith Num­ber 2304 etc.)

    But I would like to say after the rev­e­la­tion of a cer­tain verse of the Quran the Mus­lims were left with NO CHOICE oth­er than to set free the pris­on­ers of war by tak­ing some ran­som or by tak­ing with­out any ran­som as a good done to them. After the rev­e­la­tion of this verse the Mus­lims were not allowed to enslave the pris­on­ers or sell them as slaves!!!!

    When you meet the unbe­liev­ers (in the bat­tle field), smite their necks, then, when you have thor­ough­ly sub­dued them, tie fast the bonds (make cap­tives); then set them free, either by grace or ran­som, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be ; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Him­self upon them ; but that He may try some of you by means of oth­ers (Quran 47:4)

    Thus all those cap­tives of war will no more be allowed to be made slaves they will ALL be freed either 1. Through Ran­som 2. Or with­out any ran­som. All the wars that the prophet had to fight after this they had to free the pris­on­ers by either tak­ing ran­som or with­out tak­ing ran­som and enslav­ing them was com­plete­ly for­bid­den. Final­ly God revealed that if any slave desired free­dom it must be grant­ed to him :

    Those of your slaves who seek eman­ci­pa­tion (free­dom), con­tract with them accord­ing­ly, if you know some good in them ; and give them of the wealth of God that He has giv­en you. And con­strain not your slave-girls to pros­ti­tu­tion, if they desire to live in chastity…(Quran 24:33)

    The Prophet was also told :

    It belongs not to any mor­tal that God should give him the Book, the Judg­ment, the Prophet hood, then he should say to men, Be you slaves to me apart from God.’ Rather, Be you mas­ters in that you know the Book, and in that you study (Quran 3:79)
    And thus the prophet said :

    Sahih Bukhari Vol­ume 003, Book 046, Hadith Num­ber 728. ONE SHOULD NOT SAY MY SLAVE (Abdi) OR MY SLAVE-GIRL (Amati), but should say, my lad my lass (girl) and my boy.

    For the first time, a share for women in inher­i­tance was pre­scribed (although in the OT in a cer­tain case if the male rel­a­tives are not alive then the female takes the prop­er­ty oth­er­wise she gets noth­ing, Islam on the oth­er hand makes it com­pul­so­ry that the share be giv­en to females.) The share for the moth­ers is EQUAL to that of the father’s share and that of the daugh­ters and sis­ters is half as com­pared to that of the sons and broth­ers Quran 4:11)

    Men were for­bid­den to con­sid­er the birth of a female child a loss (as the Bible says!!!) and were for­bid­den to make a bad face at their birth Quran 81:7 – 9,16:58 – 59) Muham­mad (p b u h) said that women have sim­i­lar rights as men (see Quran 2:228) Women had to be con­sult­ed when tak­en in mar­riage and this was made com­pul­so­ry (Quran 4:19, Bukhari 86:98 Mus­lim 8:3305 etc.)

    For the first time ever ani­mal rights were defined.

    Human Equal­i­ty, end to racism (Muhammad’s last ser­mon, Quran 49:13, Quran 3:195)
    Pro­vid­ed solu­tions to end pover­ty (Zakat etc.), and meth­ods to unite peo­ple (the Prayers, the Hajj etc.)

    Spe­cial empha­sis on think­ing deeply about God’s cre­ation” and on look­ing for God’s signs in it” and empha­sis on bring­ing the proof for prov­ing your point,” was made in the Quran. (Quran 3:191, 67:3, 86:5, 2:164, 22:43 – 45, 51:20 – 21, 21:24, 28:75, 2:111, 23:117 etc.)

    Strong empha­sis on free­dom of choos­ing faith (as I have already men­tioned above).
    etc. etc.

    QUENNEL SAID :
    Nar­rat­ed Aisha and Abdul­lah bin Abbas : When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apos­tle came he start­ed putting his Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, MAY ALLAH CURSE THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS for they built the places of wor­ship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warn­ing (Mus­lims) of what those had done. (Sahih Bukhari, Vol­ume 1, Book 8, Num­ber 427)

    MY RESPONSE :
    Both Mus­lims and Non-Mus­lims, if they after know­ing very well that what they do is wrong, still con­tin­ue doing it will be pun­ished and are cursed by God. God says :

    Not your (the Mus­lims) desires, nor those of the Peo­ple of the Book (can pre­vail): WHEVER WORKS EVIL, WILL BE REQUITED ACCORDINGLY. Nor will he find, besides God, any pro­tec­tor or helper. (Quran 4:123)

    In the Hadith you quot­ed The Prophet said curse be on the Jews and Chris­tians who build their wor­ship places at the graves of their apos­tles”- so what’s in that ? The Prophet’s job is to warn and tell peo­ple if they are wrong and THOSE Jews and Chris­tians (who used to build wor­ship places at graves and wor­shipped those graves. Sim­i­lar to the Catholic Chris­tians of today who bow down before the idols of Jesus and Mary in the church) so they were told that they were wrong, dis­cus­sions were made with them. They them­selves knew what they were doing was wrong but they con­tin­ued doing it. God’s curse befalls those who know what they do is wrong but still con­tin­ue doing it. See Quran [002:159] Those who con­ceal the clear signs and the guid­ance that We have sent down, after We have shown them clear­ly in the Book — they shall be cursed by God and the curs­ers, [002:160] save such as repent and make amends, and show clear­ly — towards them I shall turn ; I turn, All-com­pas­sion­ate. And see Quran [003:086] How shall God guide a peo­ple who have dis­be­lieved after they believed, and bore wit­ness that the Mes­sen­ger is true, and the clear signs came to them ? God guides not the peo­ple of the evildoers.
    [003:087] Those — their rec­om­pense is that there shall rest on them the curse of God and of the angels and of men, altogether,

    The Book of Deuteron­o­my also says :

    CURSED is the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abom­i­na­tion to Yah­weh, the work of the hands of the crafts­man,… (Deuteron­o­my 27:15- The Bible)

    How­ev­er God is for­giv­ing to those who sin in ignorance :

    Quran [016:119] Then, sure­ly thy Lord — unto those who did evil in igno­rance, then repent­ed after that and put things right — sure­ly thy Lord there­after is All-for­giv­ing, All-compassionate.

    Quran [004:017] God shall turn only towards those who do evil in igno­rance, then short­ly repent ; God will return towards those ; God is All-know­ing, All-wise.

    Quran [006:054] And when those who believe in Our signs come to thee, say, Peace be upon you. Your Lord has pre­scribed for Him­self mer­cy. Whoso­ev­er of you does evil in igno­rance, and there­after repents and makes amends, He is All-for­giv­ing, All-com­pas­sion­ate.’ etc.

    Jesus (p b u h) also rebuked the peo­ple for doing things, which were hate­ful in the sight of God :

    LUKE 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Phar­isees, HYPOCRITES ! For YOU ARE LIKE HIDDEN GRAVES, MEN WHO WALK OVER THEM don’t know it.”

    11:45 One of the lawyers answered him, Teacher, in say­ing this YOU (Jesus) INSULT US also.”

    11:46 He said, Woe to you lawyers also ! For you load men with bur­dens that are dif­fi­cult to car­ry, and you your­selves won’t even lift one fin­ger to help car­ry those bur­dens. 11:47 Woe to you ! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. (Luke 11:44 – 46- the Bible)

    Fur­ther­more Paul said :
    1 Corinthi­ans 16:22-The Bible If any­one does not love the Lord — A CURSE BE ON HIM. Come, O Lord !
    But any prophet or God is not against any reli­gion but they only con­demn cer­tain fol­low­ers of dif­fer­ent reli­gions. The Quran also says that :

    Lo ! Those who believe (i.e. Muhammad’s fol­low­ers), and those who are JEWS , and CHRISTIANS, and Sabaeans – Any­one who believes in One God and the Last Day and does good deeds — sure­ly their reward is with their Lord, and there shall NO FEAR SHALL COME UPON THEM NEITHER SHALL THEY GRIEVE. (In the here­after)” (Quran 2:62)

    QUENNEL SAID :
    While in the Quran we find this : And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. THEY IMITATE THE SAYING OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE OF OLD. ALLAH (HIMSELF) FIGHTETH AGAINST THEM (Ara­bic : qaata­lahu­mu llahu anna yu’fakoona– Lit­er­al­ly-May Allah KILL THEM). HOW PERVERSE ARE THEY ! S. 9:30

    So Chris­tians should be killed for believ­ing what we want to believe. If this isn’t offen­sive I don’t know what is.

    MY RESPONSE :
    Where does the verse say Chris­tians should be killed for what they believe??????

    It says GOD’S CURSE BE ON THEMOR GOD FIGHTS THEM” or GOD DESTROYS THEM” God is just express­ing his anger over their blas­phe­my. You love to LIE that is what is offen­sive!! The verse WHATSOEVER nowhere says that Chris­tians should be killed for what they believe. Even if you want to agree with the trans­la­tion you LOVE TO AGREE WITH (far from it being offen­sive to you!) i.e. May Allah destroy them or slay them (although it does not mean that here) still we have to under­stand that God is able to destroy any one. He pun­ish­es the guilty with hell-fire and all reli­gions say that the guilty will dwell in hell-fire. How is that offen­sive?? Jesus said :

    Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him WHO IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Gehen­na (hell). (Matthew 10:28-The Bible)

    But most impor­tant­ly the prophet had made a lot of dis­cus­sions with the Chris­tians of Ara­bia and as a last resort the Mus­lims and the Chris­tians had even agreed upon doing MUBAHILA’- Mubahi­la means to pray ardent­ly to God and to pray him in com­plete sin­cer­i­ty and to hum­ble one­self before God while pray­ing ardent­ly for guid­ance and invok­ing God’s curse upon one’s own self if one is a liar. This is actu­al­ly is a test for the truth­ful one’s and the liars. Those liars who believe in God and know in their heart what they believe is wrong will not pray ardent­ly for God’s curse to befall them. Although the Chris­tians had agreed to come and the arrange­ments had been made but they declined to come after wards. The Quran­ic propo­si­tion of Mubahi­la is in this verse :

    And whoso dis­putes with thee con­cern­ing him (Jesus), after the knowl­edge that has come to thee, say : Come now, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our selves and your selves, then let us humbly, earnest­ly pray and so lay God’s curse upon the ones who lie.’ (Quran 3:61)

    The same were told :

    Quran 3:70 Ye Peo­ple of the Book ! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are witnesses ?
    3:71 Ye Peo­ple of the Book ! Why do ye clothe Truth with false­hood, and con­ceal the Truth, while YOU KNOW?” —

    So the Quran was NOT con­demn­ing any inno­cent peo­ple who did not know that they were wrong. The Jews and Chris­tians well knew they were wrong but they still kept say­ing what they well knew was not right and they had them­selves wit­nessed the signs of God. God had even told them of the secret activ­i­ty that they were involved in :

    Quran 3:72 A sec­tion of the Peo­ple of the Book say : Believe in the morn­ing what is revealed to the believ­ers, but reject it at the end of the day ; per­chance they may (them­selves) Turn back

    QUENNEL SAID :
    And to warn those who say : Allah hath cho­sen a son, (A thing) where­of they have no knowl­edge, nor (had) their fathers, Dread­ful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. THEY SPEAK NAUGHT BUTLIE. S. 18:6 – 7 Do you see us killing peo­ple and riot­ing over this verse ? Mus­lims are the biggest hypocrites

    MY RESPONSE :
    What’s your point ? Killing and riot­ing is always bad. Even if some­one says offen­sive things still killing him is wrong. And why do you think that Chris­tians would be killing and riot­ing over this verse (18:4 – 5 actu­al­ly), which says that those who say God has begot­ten a son are lying?? How can this be com­pared to the hor­ri­ble abus­es and blas­phemies, which come from the Chris­t­ian mis­sion­ar­ies against Islam ? How can this be com­pared to what the Pope said ?

    If the Pope had said that it is a lie to say that Christ is not the Son of God or that Christ is not God or that Christ was not cru­ci­fied are noth­ing but lies. NOTSINGLE MUSLIM WOULD HAVE PROTESTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are com­mit­ting the FALLACY of False Anal­o­gy ; you are like com­par­ing apples to oranges here. Even the Bible and in fact all reli­gious books call dif­fer­ent beliefs as false. No one protests. And why should any one ?

    Every one has his or her own point of view but that point of view should be pre­sent­ed in the prop­er man­ner PLUS as con­cerns the heads of states or reli­gious lead­ers they should NOT say cer­tain things (even if they think they are true) when they know what they say could hurt the feel­ings of people.

    Plus if you see what Chris­tians have been doing in the past you will know that Chris­tians HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN KILLING those peo­ple who dis-agreed with them. For exam­ple every one knows that Galileo was threat­ened to take back his sci­en­tif­ic claims about the earth, which were sup­pos­ed­ly against the Bible !

    And WHERE DOES the Bible teach being patient when some one abus­es your reli­gion or to be patient if some one blas­phemes the name of God???????????? In fact the Bible says :

    He who BLASPHEMES the name of Yah­weh, HE SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH ! the entire con­gre­ga­tion shall cer­tain­ly stone him : the for­eign­er as well as the native-born, when he blas­phemes the Name, shall be put to death. (Leviti­cus 24:16 –The Bible) I thought Quen­nel said : Mus­lims (?) are the biggest hypocrites

    Now let me not be a hyp­ocrite and also quote what the Quran says on the same issue i.e. Blasphemy

    And God’s are the best names, there­fore call on Him there­by, and LET ALONE THOSE ! BLASPHEME HIS (GOD’S) NAMES /​those who vio­late the sanc­ti­ty of His names they shall be rec­om­pensed for what they did. (The Holy Quran 7:180)

    Fur­ther­more After the Mus­lims had already fought a war with the un-believ­ers and the un-believ­ers came to fight again, at that time God knew that a lot of abus­es against Islam were going to come from their side so what did God tell the Mus­lims?? Let me not be a hyp­ocrite and state that too :

    And you will cer­tain­ly hear from those who have been giv­en the Book before you and from the idol­aters MUCH ABUSE. And IF YOUR ARE PATIENT ! And keep your duty, sure­ly this is an affair of great res­o­lu­tion” (Quran 3:186)

    So even if I for the sake of argu­ment agree that Chris­tians don’t kill when they hear blas­phemies against their reli­gion then I must say that they are CERTAINLY NOT fol­low­ing their reli­gion. In fact they are fol­low­ing the Quran.

    And yes cer­tain Mus­lims do claim that those who blas­pheme should be put to death ; they usu­al­ly say that on the basis of hadiths (which are indeed authen­tic but mis­un­der­stood or not under­stood in the light of the Quran) which pro­pose the death penal­ty for cer­tain apos­tates. But still no one of them claims that women should be pun­ished with death if they blas­pheme, unlike the Bib­li­cal law, which is for both women and men and a woman is report­ed to be killed by the prophet Moses in the Bible due to her blas­phe­my. But by say­ing this I do not at all mean that Islam allows death penal­ty for men who are apos­tates or for those who blas­pheme, as I said before this is a mis-under­stand­ing of the hadiths, which say that.

    ->And you see the peo­ple who riot. All of them are poor peo­ple who are tired of liv­ing in pover­ty. They are filled with anger against the West for killing their brethren in Kash­mir, Pales­tine, Iraq, and Afghanistan etc. In this time all they have to hold to and to sat­is­fy their des­o­late hearts is their reli­gion and when some one comes up talk­ing bad about their reli­gion so open­ly, they nat­u­ral­ly are not able to bear that.

    QUENNEL SAID :
    They’re (i.e. the Mus­lims) no dif­fer­ent the KKK who want every­body to fol­low and be sub­ject­ed to them.

    MY RESPONSE :
    Not at all. In fact the Quran allows speak­ing against injus­tice in public :

    Quran 4:148
    God loves not that evil should be noised abroad in pub­lic speech, EXCEPT where injus­tice has been done ; for God is He who hears and knows all things.

    The above verse i.e. Quran 4:148 explains the Islam­ic point of view. Free­dom of Speech is alright as far it does not become a means of abus­ing oth­ers and hurt­ing the feel­ings of oth­ers and as far as it does not make dif­fi­cult the liv­ing togeth­er of civ­i­liza­tions in peace and harmony.

  10. I ask Mr Admin to hold back this com­ment of mine so that it may be released after HeiGou replies to my pre­vi­ous one…just to see how close I come to HeiGou’s response.

    I will try (not very hard) to imag­ine how HeiGou’s fan­tas­tic imag­i­na­tion will work on my ques­tion to him. Tis as follows…

    Intro­duced by var­i­ous traders and wan­der­ing mys­tics from India, Islam first gained a foothold between the twelfth and fif­teenth cen­turies in coastal regions of Suma­tra, north­ern Java, and Kali­man­tan. Islam prob­a­bly came to these regions in the form of mys­ti­cal Sufi tra­di­tion. Sufism eas­i­ly gained local accep­tance and became syn­the­sized with local customs.

    The intro­duc­tion of Islam to the islands was noth­ing oth­er than peace­ful. As Islamized port towns under­mined the wan­ing pow­er of the east Javanese Hindu/​Buddhist Majapahit king­dom in the six­teenth cen­tu­ry, Javanese elites FLED to Bali, where over 2.5 mil­lion peo­ple kept their own ver­sion of Hin­duism alive. Unlike coastal Suma­tra, where Islam was adopt­ed by elites and mass­es alike, part­ly as a way to counter the eco­nom­ic and polit­i­cal pow­er of the Hin­du-Bud­dhist kingdoms.”

    I, how­ev­er, sus­pect that HeiGou will pro­duce some­thing more dra­mat­ic cre­at­ed around sim­i­lar his­to­ry”.

  11. HeiGou (if I’m using the cor­rect lan­guage- HeiGou is Black Dog”), Paak­Maw then, is White Cat” .…

    Any­way, it seems to me that the dis­cus­sions with you seem to be a tit for a tat”. I cau­tion the Mus­lims to keep away from argu­ing for the sake of argu­ing” (-Ibn Tamiyah).

    Just to prove to the mus­lims that it serves no pur­pose for you to con­tin­ue this cha­rade with Black Dog… here’s a last Bone for you, HeiGou. (Malaysians will get this punt…“Black Dog Bone” :-D )

    I won­der what you have to say about the Malays in Indone­sia and Malaysia being COERCED, in any way using yr fan­tas­tic, and at tines, hilar­i­ous imag­i­na­tion into your imag­i­nar­i­ly ugly world of Islam.

    (Mus­lims, kind­ly sit back and let Black Dog enjoy his last Bone and see what he can vom­it out..)

  12. Malikam X said on 26 Octo­ber 2006:“Golly, HeiGou. You are choosy in terms of what you choose to dis­cuss”.”

    You seem to think that is a bad thing.

    Malikam X said on 26 Octo­ber 2006:“Our Israeli friend AVNERY (not Avery) also said, When the Catholics re-con­quered Spain from the Mus­lims, they insti­tut­ed a reign of reli­gious ter­ror. The Jews and the Mus­lims were pre­sent­ed with a cru­el choice : to become Chris­tians, to be mas­sa­cred or to leave. And where did the hun­dreds of thou­sand of Jews, who refused to aban­don their faith, escape ? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Mus­lim countries.”

    No prob­lems. Again if he, or the Mus­lims who quot­ed this, meant it, they would agree that the exact equiv­a­lent sit­u­a­tion also applies : when the FLN came to pow­er in Alge­ria they told the Jews that if they stayed their daugh­ters would become matress­es for the ALN. So those Jews fled to France and to Israel. Is there was a shred of hon­esty here, or even con­sis­ten­cy, we would all have to agree that French colo­nial rule in Alge­ria was as good if not bet­ter than Mus­lim rule in Spain.

    I won’t hold my breath wait­ing for agreement.

  13. Karim Alhi­ane said on 27 Octo­ber 2006:“The First Schol­ar in the list is based in Sau­di Ara­bia and is present on the Inter­na­tion­al Union of Mus­lim Schol­ars of Which Qaradawi is part of The Mus­lim Broth­er­hood is a polit­i­cal Oor­ga­ni­za­tion and does not rep­re­sent the vei­ws of Sun­ni Main­stream Islam The Lead­ing Tra­di­tion­al Sun­ni Schol­ar in The west Shaykh Hamza Yusuf who is well known in the mus­lim com­mu­ni­ty in Amer­i­ca has also signed the let­ter. The fact that the some states are repres­sive has no bear­ing because This is main­stream oth­a­dox veiw of sun­ni islam on the issue the prob­lem is poli­ti­tions and groups who do not adhere to the main­stream sun­ni islam­ic vei­ws on issues. Islam : Reli­gion or Ide­ol­o­gy ? http://​www​.zay​tu​na​.org/​a​r​t​i​cle.….ticleID=95

    Inter­est­ing that a Sau­di signed it — if, of course, the first sign­er is a Sau­di as opposed to some one who works at a Sau­di Uni­ver­si­ty. Of course once the neo-Khar­i­jis start­ed attack­ing Sau­di Ara­bia there have been a num­ber of state­ments from reli­gious fig­ures there con­demn­ing ter­ror­ism. What these 38 peo­ple are, as a gen­er­al rule, is fair­ly mar­gin­al. The lack of any broad rep­re­sen­ta­tive view is notice­able. The main­stream of Sun­ni Islam is becom­ing more and more like the MB all the time and has since the Salafi move­ment of the late 19th cen­tu­ry. You can call them a polit­i­cal move­ment if you like, but Islam is a polit­i­cal move­ment too so the dis­tinc­tion is irrel­e­vant. I do not see how you can call Hamza Yusuf the Lead­ing Tra­di­tion­al Sun­ni Schol­ar” in the West. In fact I would object to the words lead­ing”, tra­di­tion­al”, and schol­ar” while any num­ber of Mus­lim sites would also dis­pute Sun­ni” as well. He is bare­ly known out­side the US and he has lit­tle rep­u­ta­tion inside it for his habit of say­ing dif­fer­ent things to dif­fer­ence audi­ences. If it was a main­stream posi­tion we would see more main­stream schol­ars sign­ing it. What it looks like is an attempt by the for­mer Com­mu­nist block to head of dis­putes by forc­ing their tame muftis to sign a peti­tion which a bunch of oth­er Mus­lims, for what­ev­er rea­son, agreed to do as well. I won­der if they even read the Eng­lish orig­i­nal. I expect not. So I won­der what they did sign. I think you may find that more Mus­lims regard the MB are more main­stream than the Zay­tu­na Insti­tute. After all, how many Amer­i­can Mus­lims agree that burn­ing the flag is wrong ? Most of them seem to think attacks on Amer­i­cans are fine — at least accord­ing to the MSA.

  14. HeiGou you said Where is Qaradawi or the Mus­lim broth­er­hood ? Where are any Saudis ?

    The First Schol­ar in the list is based in Sau­di Ara­bia and is present on the Inter­na­tion­al Union of Mus­lim Schol­ars of Which Qaradawi is part of The Mus­lim Broth­er­hood is a polit­i­cal Oor­ga­ni­za­tion and does not rep­re­sent the vei­ws of Sun­ni Main­stream Islam The Lead­ing Tra­di­tion­al Sun­ni Schol­ar in The west Shaykh Hamza Yusuf who is well known in the mus­lim com­mu­ni­ty in Amer­i­ca has also signed the let­ter. The fact that the some states are repres­sive has no bear­ing because This is main­stream oth­a­dox veiw of sun­ni islam on the issue the prob­lem is poli­ti­tions and groups who do not adhere to the main­stream sun­ni islam­ic vei­ws on issues. Islam : Reli­gion or Ide­ol­o­gy ? http://​www​.zay​tu​na​.org/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​D​e​t​a​i​l​s​.​a​s​p​?​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​I​D​=95

  15. Gol­ly, HeiGou. You are choosy in terms of what you choose to dis­cuss”.

    Our Israeli friend AVNERY (not Avery) also said, When the Catholics re-con­quered Spain from the Mus­lims, they insti­tut­ed a reign of reli­gious ter­ror. The Jews and the Mus­lims were pre­sent­ed with a cru­el choice : to become Chris­tians, to be mas­sa­cred or to leave. And where did the hun­dreds of thou­sand of Jews, who refused to aban­don their faith, escape ? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Mus­lim coun­tries. The Sephar­di (”Span­ish”) Jews set­tled all over the Mus­lim world, from Moroc­co in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bul­gar­ia (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they per­se­cut­ed. They knew noth­ing like the tor­tures of the Inqui­si­tion, the flames of the auto-da-fé, the pogroms, the ter­ri­ble mass-expul­sions that took place in almost all Chris­t­ian coun­tries, up to the Holocaust.”

  16. Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006:“HeiGou, you should know bet­ter than to expect Moslems to defend them­selves against such attacks.”

    Well I live in hope that one day these issues will be resolved through dis­cus­sion and not behead­ing. I expect I am naïve.

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“The treat­ment of oth­er reli­gions by Islam must be judged by a sim­ple test : How did the Mus­lim rulers behave for more than a thou­sand years, when they had the pow­er to spread the faith by the sword”?”

    This is sim­ply going to become a dis­cus­sion about what we mean by spread­ing faith by the sword”. Did they forcibly con­vert every­one with­in their pow­er ? Of course not. Or at least, not every where. Did they rely on mil­i­tary force to con­quer coun­tries and then use their police pow­ers to harass and per­se­cute non-Mus­lims into con­vert­ing ? Of course they did. Would any­one in the Mid­dle East have con­vert­ed to Islam if not for the sword ? Well thir­teen years try­ing peace­ful­ly in Mec­ca and Muhammed only man­aged a few dozen con­verts. How much bet­ter did he do in Medina ?

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“For many cen­turies, the Mus­lims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Mus­lims ? Did any­one even try to Islamize them ? On the con­trary, Chris­t­ian Greeks held the high­est posi­tions in the Ottoman admin­is­tra­tion. The Bul­gar­i­ans, Serbs, Roma­ni­ans, Hun­gar­i­ans and oth­er Euro­pean nations lived at one time or anoth­er under Ottoman rule and clung to their Chris­t­ian faith. Nobody com­pelled them to become Mus­lims and all of them remained devout­ly Christian.”

    A lot of Greeks did become Mus­lims and hence ceased to be Greeks. Because, of course, the Turk­ish gov­ern­ment har­rassed and per­se­cut­ed them and occa­sion­al­ly forcibly did bad things to them. Like the time the Ottoman sol­diers com­plained about a lack of female com­pa­ny and so the Sul­tan took them to a Church and grabbed every Greek girl who came out and gave them to the sol­diers as wives. The Turks tried very hard to con­vert them. They just did not offer them two choic­es (“Islam” or death”) as opposed to the usu­al three (“Islam”, dhim­mi­tude” or death”). Did the Greeks rise to the high­est posi­tions in the gov­ern­ment ? Well free Greek boys tak­en as slaves and forcibly con­vert­ed to Islam did. Is this what is being count­ed ? Can we all agree that was expan­sion of Islam by the sword giv­en the vio­lence used and the objec­tions of the families ?

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“True, the Alba­ni­ans did con­vert to Islam, and so did the Bosni­aks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopt­ed Islam in order to become favorites of the gov­ern­ment and enjoy the fruits.”

    Favorites of the gov­ern­ment and enjoy the fruit. That is, Islam­ic law per­se­cut­ed and harassed them if they remained Chris­t­ian and reward­ed them if they became Mus­lims and they agreed to become Mus­lims. Not some­thing that could have been done if not for the Ottoman Army repress­ing them.

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“THERE IS no evi­dence what­so­ev­er of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Mus­lim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy any­where else until almost our time.”

    The exam­ple of Shab­batai Sevi sug­gests that is not true. Turkey still has a pop­u­la­tion of Mus­lims who were forcibly con­vert­ed from Islam.

    As for the Gold­en Age of Mus­lim Spain, it is triv­ial to prove that Left­ists like this guy and Mus­lims are using a Protes­tant myth that they do not believe in. That they are, basi­cal­ly, dis­hon­est in their pre­sen­ta­tion of this sto­ry giv­en they reject it and the val­ues it rep­re­sents. After all, just ask about French rule in Alge­ria or British rule in Malaysia or Dutch rule in Indone­sia. All these places saw a more tol­er­ant and peace­ful sys­tem of gov­ern­ment where peo­ple of all faiths learnt from each oth­er and the rulers spread the most advanced tech­nol­o­gy and civil­i­sa­tion. So French Alge­ria was at least as much a Gold­en Age as Mus­lim Spain. Does any­one disagree ?

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“WHY ? Because Islam express­ly pro­hib­it­ed any per­se­cu­tion of the peo­ples of the book”. In Islam­ic soci­ety, a spe­cial place was reserved for Jews and Chris­tians. They did not enjoy com­plete­ly equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a spe­cial poll-tax, but were exempt­ed from mil­i­tary ser­vice — a trade-off that was quite wel­come to many Jews. It has been said that Mus­lim rulers frowned upon any attempt to con­vert Jews to Islam even by gen­tle per­sua­sion — because it entailed the loss of taxes.”

    Yes — peo­ple of the Book. Jews, Chris­tians. Maz­daeans and Zoroas­tri­ans. Not Bud­dhists for instance. Was Islam spread by the sword wher­ev­er Bud­dhists lived ? Well yes it was. Almost equal rights ? This is absurd. It would be hard to name a sin­gle equal right.

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“THE STORY about spread­ing the faith by the sword” is an evil leg­end, one of the myths that grew up in Europe dur­ing the great wars against the Mus­lims — the recon­quista of Spain by the Chris­tians, the Cru­sades and the repul­sion of the Turks, who almost con­quered Vienna.”

    Actu­al­ly it is a sim­ple state­ment of fact. There are two def­i­n­i­tions of spread­ing by the sword” and you both only look at one — the Islam or death” argu­ment. That did apply but most­ly in the non-Euro­pean world where there were few Chris­tians or Jews. How­ev­er the more sub­tle ver­sion — Islam can only expand where it holds polit­i­cal pow­er and per­se­cutes — is obvi­ous­ly true and it is not a myth.

    Ter­ence said on 21 Octo­ber 2006 quot­ing Avery:“I sus­pect that the Ger­man Pope, too, hon­est­ly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Chris­t­ian the­olo­gian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the his­to­ry of oth­er religions.”

    I would sug­gest that some­one check with the Pope before they make com­ments about what he believes. The irony of peo­ple attack­ing the Pope — not for what the Pope said — but the con­tent of a quote from a Byzan­tine Emper­or is amaz­ing. Why is it iron­ic ? That Byzan­tine Emper­or had seen most of his Empire go down under the swords of the Ghazis and his son would see Byzan­tium fall. For 700 years the Byzan­tines had suf­fered unjus­ti­fied and unpro­voked attacks by Mus­lims. Who can hon­est­ly claim to know bet­ter how Islam was spread by the sword than the vic­tims like the Emperor ?

  17. Karim Alhi­ane said on 16 Octo­ber 2006:“another good read :

    http://​www​.masud​.co​.uk/​I​S​L​A​M/m.….nedict.php”

    Actu­al­ly I thought that start­ed out well but became the usu­al run of the mill para­noia, con­spir­a­cy the­o­ry, ad hominem, mis­in­ter­pre­ta­tions, mis­quo­ta­tions, sneers and slurs. It is the best I have seen so far but that sim­ply reflects the inad­e­qua­cy of the Mus­lim response.

    Karim Alhi­ane said on 21 Octo­ber 2006:Keep them comming
    Open Let­ter to His Holi­ness Pope Bene­dict XVI by 38 Lead­ing Mus­lim Schol­ars and Leaders
    very good bal­anced read
    http://​www​.islami​ca​m​agazine​.co.….8238DA.pdf”

    Lead­ing Mus­lim schol­ars” in this case being lead­ing Mus­lim schol­ars from a lot of repres­sive police states with lit­tle cred­i­bil­i­ty”. Why do I think the Russ­ian gov­ern­ment may have lent on peo­ple ? I assume we all can agree the Syr­i­ans and Jor­da­ni­ans did. Who else signed it ? The grand muftis of Egypt, Rus­sia, Bosnia, Croa­t­ia, Koso­vo, Turkey, Uzbek­istan and Oman, the Iran­ian Shi­ite cler­ic Aya­tol­lah Muham­mad Ali Taskhiri, and Pro­fes­sor Seyyed Hos­sein Nasr of George­town Uni­ver­si­ty, Wash­ing­ton. The GM of Egypt impress­es me but of course he is just a civ­il ser­vant. The rest are a group of repres­sive for­mer Com­mu­nist coun­tries, that well known Islam­ic repub­lic of Turkey, and of course Pro­fes­sor Nasr — a mod­er­ate” Sufi. The inter­est­ing ones are the Omani and Taskhiri, but what you have here is not Islam” respond­ing to the Pope, but what looks very much like a group of repres­sive anti-Islam­ic states attempt­ing to head off Mus­lim anger before it takes to the streets. Where is Qaradawi or the Mus­lim broth­er­hood ? Where are any Saudis ?

  18. HeiGou, you should know bet­ter than to expect Moslems to defend them­selves against such attacks. Let’s see what an Israeli can do.…

    Muham­mad’s Sword by Uri Avnery
    23-09-2006
    http://​zope​.gush​-shalom​.org/​h​o​m​e​/​e​n​/​c​h​a​n​n​e​l​s​/​a​v​n​e​r​y​/​1159094813/

    As a Jew­ish athe­ist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my hum­ble abil­i­ties to under­stand the log­ic of the Pope. But I can­not over­look one pas­sage, which con­cerns me too, as an Israeli liv­ing near the fault-line of this war of civilizations”.

    Jesus said : You will rec­og­nize them by their fruits.” The treat­ment of oth­er reli­gions by Islam must be judged by a sim­ple test : How did the Mus­lim rulers behave for more than a thou­sand years, when they had the pow­er to spread the faith by the sword”?

    Well, they just did not.

    For many cen­turies, the Mus­lims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Mus­lims ? Did any­one even try to Islamize them ? On the con­trary, Chris­t­ian Greeks held the high­est posi­tions in the Ottoman admin­is­tra­tion. The Bul­gar­i­ans, Serbs, Roma­ni­ans, Hun­gar­i­ans and oth­er Euro­pean nations lived at one time or anoth­er under Ottoman rule and clung to their Chris­t­ian faith. Nobody com­pelled them to become Mus­lims and all of them remained devout­ly Christian.

    True, the Alba­ni­ans did con­vert to Islam, and so did the Bosni­aks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopt­ed Islam in order to become favorites of the gov­ern­ment and enjoy the fruits.

    In 1099, the Cru­saders con­quered Jerusalem and mas­sa­cred its Mus­lim and Jew­ish inhab­i­tants indis­crim­i­nate­ly, in the name of the gen­tle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occu­pa­tion of Pales­tine by the Mus­lims, Chris­tians were still the major­i­ty in the coun­try. Through­out this long peri­od, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expul­sion of the Cru­saders from the coun­try, did the major­i­ty of the inhab­i­tants start to adopt the Ara­bic lan­guage and the Mus­lim faith — and they were the fore­fa­thers of most of today’s Palestinians.

    THERE IS no evi­dence what­so­ev­er of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Mus­lim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy any­where else until almost our time. Poets like Yehu­da Halevy wrote in Ara­bic, as did the great Mai­monides. In Mus­lim Spain, Jews were min­is­ters, poets, sci­en­tists. In Mus­lim Tole­do, Chris­t­ian, Jew­ish and Mus­lim schol­ars worked togeth­er and trans­lat­ed the ancient Greek philo­soph­i­cal and sci­en­tif­ic texts. That was, indeed, the Gold­en Age. How would this have been pos­si­ble, had the Prophet decreed the spread­ing of the faith by the sword”?

    What hap­pened after­wards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-con­quered Spain from the Mus­lims, they insti­tut­ed a reign of reli­gious ter­ror. The Jews and the Mus­lims were pre­sent­ed with a cru­el choice : to become Chris­tians, to be mas­sa­cred or to leave. And where did the hun­dreds of thou­sand of Jews, who refused to aban­don their faith, escape ? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Mus­lim coun­tries. The Sephar­di (“Span­ish”) Jews set­tled all over the Mus­lim world, from Moroc­co in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bul­gar­ia (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they per­se­cut­ed. They knew noth­ing like the tor­tures of the Inqui­si­tion, the flames of the auto-da-fé, the pogroms, the ter­ri­ble mass-expul­sions that took place in almost all Chris­t­ian coun­tries, up to the Holocaust.

    WHY ? Because Islam express­ly pro­hib­it­ed any per­se­cu­tion of the peo­ples of the book”. In Islam­ic soci­ety, a spe­cial place was reserved for Jews and Chris­tians. They did not enjoy com­plete­ly equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a spe­cial poll-tax, but were exempt­ed from mil­i­tary ser­vice — a trade-off that was quite wel­come to many Jews. It has been said that Mus­lim rulers frowned upon any attempt to con­vert Jews to Islam even by gen­tle per­sua­sion — because it entailed the loss of taxes.

    Every hon­est Jew who knows the his­to­ry of his peo­ple can­not but feel a deep sense of grat­i­tude to Islam, which has pro­tect­ed the Jews for fifty gen­er­a­tions, while the Chris­t­ian world per­se­cut­ed the Jews and tried many times by the sword” to get them to aban­don their faith.

    THE STORY about spread­ing the faith by the sword” is an evil leg­end, one of the myths that grew up in Europe dur­ing the great wars against the Mus­lims — the recon­quista of Spain by the Chris­tians, the Cru­sades and the repul­sion of the Turks, who almost con­quered Vien­na. I sus­pect that the Ger­man Pope, too, hon­est­ly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Chris­t­ian the­olo­gian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the his­to­ry of oth­er religions.

  19. Keep them comming
    Open Let­ter to His Holi­ness Pope Bene­dict XVI by 38 Lead­ing Mus­lim Schol­ars and Leaders
    very good bal­anced read
    http://​www​.islami​ca​m​agazine​.com/​m​e​d​i​a​/​p​d​f​/​o​p​e​n​/​b​/​o​p​e​n​l​e​t​t​e​r​-​8238​D​A​.​pdf

  20. Robo­cop said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“white con­spir­a­cy the­o­rists believe that it was your white cross­t­ian ter­ror­ist gov­er­ment that planned the 911 incident.”

    I am not respon­si­ble for the rant­i­ngs of the insane.

    Me:“And the West­ern mil­i­tary are not ter­ror­ists but sol­diers car­ry­ing out a legal, moral­ly just, war that the Mus­lim ter­ror­ists started.”

    Robo­cop said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“khristian ter­ror­ists are phkin just ? they are cow­ards hid­ing behind fight­er jets that take out hun­dreds and thou­sands of inncoent civil­ian because of an alleaged ter­ror­ist in white cross­tians mind ? you believe that white cross­t­ian lie ? would you like to experice your house get­ting bombed ? your grand­maas nose get­ting blown off by white cross­t­ian ter­ror­ist bombs?”

    If you do not both­er to read what I said, there is no point reply­ing. There are no Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists and in so far as there are any, the US Army is not among them. There is no moral equiv­a­lence between a legal army car­ry­ing out legal orders in a legal war — mean­ing they actu­ve­ly try not to harm civil­ians — and ter­ror­ists. So your com­ments are sim­ply irrel­e­vant. Islam­ic law com­mands Mus­lims to attack Har­bi sol­diers if they shel­ter behind civil­ians. Even if those civil­ians are Mus­lims. Not allows, but com­mands. Is that moral­ly wrong ? A legal war is one thing, ter­ror­ism is anoth­er. If you wish to dis­cuss the rights and wrongs of wars I am hap­py to but there is no com­par­i­son what­so­ev­er between the US Army which tries not to kill civil­ians, and the ter­ror­ists who try to do noth­ing else.

    Robo­cop said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“muslims are using only garbage weapons that are noth­ing com­pared to white cross­t­ian bombs that kill millions.maybe the iraqi broth­ers should match white cross­t­ian col­lat­er­al dam­age,” what do you think?”

    The Amer­i­cans have not killed mil­lions and the effects of those weapons is irrel­e­vant. The inten­tion is what counts. If the Iraqis want to join a legal army, and fight in the open in uni­forms, man to man, with­out attack­ing civil­ians, they can do so legal­ly. As long as they fight for a coun­try. They would die of course but they would have a moral and legal right to do so. But if they want to hide behind women, refuse to wear uni­forms, refuse to fight like sol­diers, they are only ban­dits and they ought to be dealt with accord­ing­ly. The Iraqis are not match­ing the Amer­i­cans in col­lat­er­al dam­age — they are caus­ing most of it.

    Robo­cop said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“this is cross­t­ian love at its best.”

    No one claims that army is a Chris­t­ian army but you. And the body count does not include only those killed by the Amer­i­cans. Your out­rage is sim­ply based on an irra­tional hatred. Seek med­ical help.

    Karim Alhi­ane said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“I have some good Responces from islam­ic schol­ars and chris­tion leaders

    Karim Alhi­ane said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“New Arti­cle : A Mus­lim Response to The Pope By Imam Zaid Shakir
    http://​www​.zay​tu​na​.org/​a​r​t​i​cle.….icleID=107

    How is this sub­lit­er­ate, semi-edu­cat­ed rant a good response ? It assumes that the Pope is evil and it does not even both­er to con­sid­er his argu­ment. For example :

    Instead, he scoured the writ­ings of a rival sect to find a state­ment that cat­e­gor­i­cal­ly con­demns Islam as irra­tional and violent.”

    Where is the evi­dence that he scoured” anything ?

    The Pope is a trained philoso­pher, logi­cian, and diplo­mat and as such, he knows exact­ly what the impli­ca­tions of the word only” are in the emperor’s state­ment : Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman…”

    Only” ren­ders the state­ment cat­e­gor­i­cal, mean­ing there is noth­ing good to be found in Islam.”

    No it does not. Any child with the read­ing age of a sev­en year old knows that the claim that there was noth­ing good in all the *new* *things* Muhammed brought is not the same as there being noth­ing good in Islam. What the Emper­or claimed is that when Islam talks of peace and jus­tice and so on, these are repeat­ing the Chris­t­ian mes­sage. What Islam does that is unique, he claimed, is evil — such as jihad. This is basic read­ing com­pre­hen­sion. Sure­ly you can find better.

    As he devel­ops his argu­ment, he also implies there is noth­ing ratio­nal in Islam. Hence, there is no room to nego­ti­ate with Mus­lims, there are no lofty or shared prin­ci­ples or val­ues to appeal to, there is only evil. In a world where good is the desir­able ide­al, evil must be elim­i­nat­ed. The Pope did not car­ry his argu­ment to this log­i­cal con­clu­sion, but oth­ers have done so.”

    Again this is sim­ply hate. The Pope said none of this. He sim­ply con­trast­ed the Chris­t­ian and Mus­lim views of rea­son and log­ic in their respec­tive reli­gions. Nowhere did he say there was noth­ing ratio­nal in Islam. Nowhere did he say there are no shared val­ues — on the con­trary he specif­i­cal­ly said the con­trary. Nowhere did he even hint Islam ought to be elim­i­nat­ed. This is sim­ple vile pro­voka­tion and hatred from an intel­lec­tu­al pygmy. Kind of prov­ing the point thought does­n’t it ?

    Karim Alhi­ane said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“A Mes­sage from His Beat­i­tude Ignatius IV (Father Haz­im of Lebanon)”

    Karim Alhi­ane said on 9 Octo­ber 2006:“Greek Ortho­dox Patri­arch of Anti­och and all the East
    http://www.zaytuna.org/A‑Messa.….ius-IV.asp”

    Yes. The views of a Dhim­mi in a repres­sive police state like Syr­ia is nei­ther here nor there. Read care­ful­ly. The Copt Pope essen­tial­ly said, in a pas­sage oth­er Mus­lims have com­ment­ed on, we don’t sup­port the Pope because the Mus­lims will kill us”. I expect the under­ly­ing moti­va­tion is the same here.

  21. Well yes and no. All three revealed reli­gions have been foes of women’s rights and equal­i­ty, but Chris­tian­i­ty the least so and so Chris­tian­i­ty was the pre­req­ui­site for Women’s rights.”

    extract from an arti­cle called Reply to McFall on Jesus as a Philoso­pher (2004)”

    In con­trast, for exam­ple, why do we not find any­thing even close to this from Jesus ?

    Women, as well as men…have received from the gods the gift of reason…and the female has the same sens­es as the male…one has noth­ing more than the oth­er. More­over, not men alone, but women, too, have a nat­ur­al incli­na­tion toward virtue and the capac­i­ty for acquir­ing it, and it is the nature of women no less than men to be pleased by good and just acts and to reject the oppo­site of these.…Yes, but I assure you, some will say, that women who asso­ciate with philoso­phers are bound to be arro­gant for the most part and pre­sump­tu­ous, in that aban­don­ing their own house­holds and turn­ing to the com­pa­ny of men they prac­tice speech­es, talk like sophists, and ana­lyze syl­lo­gisms, when they ought to be sit­ting at home spin­ning. I should not expect the women who study phi­los­o­phy to shirk their appoint­ed tasks for mere talk any more than men, but I main­tain that their dis­cus­sions should be con­duct­ed for the sake of their prac­ti­cal appli­ca­tion. For as there is no mer­it in the sci­ence of med­i­cine unless it con­duces to the heal­ing of man’s body, so if a philoso­pher has or teach­es rea­son, it is of no use if it does not con­tribute to the virtue of the human soul. (Muso­nius Rufus, That Women Too Should Study Philosophy”)”

    have you ever con­sid­ered rufus’s god ?

  22. I have some good Responces from islam­ic schol­ars and chris­tion leaders

    I will post the links here for any­one to read

    Zay­tu­na Videocast
    Episode 3
    with Shaykh Hamza
    Broad­en­ing the
    Scope of the Pope”
    http://​video​.google​.com/​v​i​d​e​o​p​l​a​y​?​d​o​c​i​d​=​-​8674951077890290774&​h​l​=en

    New Arti­cle : A Mus­lim Response to The Pope
    By Imam Zaid Shakir
    http://​www​.zay​tu​na​.org/​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​D​e​t​a​i​l​s​.​a​s​p​?​a​r​t​i​c​l​e​I​D​=​107

    Imam Zaid Shakir — Response To The Pope (Audio) |
    http://zaidshakir.com/%5Cmp3%5Cresponsetopope.mp3

    A Mes­sage from His Beat­i­tude Ignatius IV
    (Father Haz­im of Lebanon)

    Greek Ortho­dox Patri­arch of Anti­och and all the East
    http://www.zaytuna.org/A‑Message-from-His-Beatitude-Ignatius-IV.asp

  23. I have nev­er seen a Chris­t­ian delib­er­ate crash his plane on any­thing — what inci­dent do you have in mind ?

    white con­spir­a­cy the­o­rists believe that it was your white cross­t­ian ter­ror­ist gov­er­ment that planned the 911 incident.

    And the West­ern mil­i­tary are not ter­ror­ists but sol­diers car­ry­ing out a legal, moral­ly just, war that the Mus­lim ter­ror­ists started.

    khris­t­ian ter­ror­ists are phkin just ? they are cow­ards hid­ing behind fight­er jets that take out hun­dreds and thou­sands of inncoent civil­ian because of an alleaged ter­ror­ist in white cross­tians mind ? you believe that white cross­t­ian lie ? would you like to experice your house get­ting bombed ? your grand­maas nose get­ting blown off by white cross­t­ian ter­ror­ist bombs ?

    You are clear­ly irra­tional on this sub­ject but if you can­not see the dif­fer­ence between the West that tries not kill inno­cent peo­ple and fights openly,and the Mus­lim ter­ror­ists who aim to kill civil­ians and will not fight open­ly there is some­thing wrong with you.

    mus­lims are using only garbage weapons that are noth­ing com­pared to white cross­t­ian bombs that kill millions.maybe the iraqi broth­ers should match white cross­t­ian col­lat­er­al dam­age,” what do you think ?

    at infi​del​.org forums a jew­ish per­son by the name of red dave start­ed a thread long ago called IRAQ BODY COUNT — ONGOING

    http://​www​.iidb​.org/​v​b​b​/​s​h​o​w​t​h​r​e​a​d​.​p​h​p​?​t​=​152508

    this is cross­t­ian love at its best.

  24. John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“Dividing Bible with the mea­sure of Before Christ” and After Christ” is the best exam­ple for the best act of stu­pid­i­ty”. There are no such things like Before Christ” and After Christ”, as Jesus him­self told that he was in exis­tence even before Abra­ham. See » Before Abra­ham was I am. (John 8:58)”.”

    Which is inter­est­ing but irrel­e­vant. The divi­sion into BC and AD makes per­fect Chris­t­ian sense because the impor­tance is not the exis­tence of Christ, but His inter­ac­tion with the world and His sac­ri­fice on the Cross. So although He exist­ed, Chris­tians think, before He was born, the Con­venant only applied ot Jews before He died on the Cross.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“You would not have the above said things if you lived by the New Tes­ta­ment either. If you enjoy any kind of free­dom in your coun­try, bear in mind that it is not because of New Tes­ta­ment. If women in your coun­try feel equal­i­ty with men, it is because they fought for it, they shed their blood and tears for it. Racism and geno­cide have been the monop­o­lies of the Bible and its fol­low­ers. No oth­er scrip­tures had showed the audac­i­ty to play with that fire. eye-for-an-eye” ide­ol­o­gy was first coined by no oth­er scrip­ture than your Holy” Bible.”

    Well yes and no. All three revealed reli­gions have been foes of wom­en’s rights and equal­i­ty, but Chris­tian­i­ty the least so and so Chris­tian­i­ty was the pre­req­ui­site for Wom­en’s rights. Racism and geno­cide are not monop­o­lies of the Bible and only an idiot would think so. And the con­cept of an eye for an eye” dates back to Sumer­ian law and so pre-dates even the Bible.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“Muslims had been claim­ing the above state­ment for cen­turies that cru­sades were racial. So you agree with them ! Thank you very much for being the first fanat­ic Chris­t­ian to raise his voice against crusade”.”

    I doubt that Mus­lims have ever claimed the Cru­sades had any­thing to do with race because they did not. They were an attempt to defend the West and lib­er­ate land lost to Mus­lim aggres­sion and colonisation.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“Watch any chan­nels oth­er then CNN. Then you shall see Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists crash­ing their aero­planes and car­pet bomb­ing on every atom and mol­e­cules in Iraq and Afgan­istan or any oth­er places in this globe, killing mil­lions of inno­cent peo­ple includ­ing babies, women and old folks alike.”

    I have nev­er seen a Chris­t­ian delib­er­ate crash his plane on any­thing — what inci­dent do you have in mind ? And the West­ern mil­i­tary are not ter­ror­ists but sol­diers car­ry­ing out a legal, moral­ly just, war that the Mus­lim ter­ror­ists start­ed. You are clear­ly irra­tional on this sub­ject but if you can­not see the dif­fer­ence between the West that tries not kill inno­cent peo­ple and fights open­ly, and the Mus­lim ter­ror­ists who aim to kill civil­ians and will not fight open­ly there is some­thing wrong with you.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“These Mus­lim ter­ror­ists”, you saw just 5 years ago, crash­ing aero­planes into build­ings, were try­ing to retal­i­ate for the act of ter­ror­ism com­mit­ted for cen­turies, by these state-spon­sored Chris­t­ian terrorists.”

    There are no state-spon­sored ter­ror­ists in the West. Only in the Mus­lim world. And they were not retal­i­at­ing for any­thing because a. they have noth­ing to retal­i­ate for, and b. if you play that game, the Mus­lims still start­ed it when they invad­ed Roman Syr­ia unjust­ly and with­out provokation.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“The big joke here is that these Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists showed the guts to jus­ti­fy their crimes by say­ing that they were try­ing to install democ­ra­cy” in these regions. Why don’t they inter­fere in Chi­na, Korea and oth­er mil­i­tar­i­ly pow­er­ful coun­tries ? There is no democ­ra­cy in these coun­tries ! I shall tell you the rea­son. These Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists will get their ass­es burned if they dare to touch these countries!”

    Well of course. So what ? Because you can­not do every­thing is not rea­son not to do some­thing. We have to start some­where and with the peo­ple that attacked Amer­i­ca seems a good place to start. What is the joke ?

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“Only the peo­ple like you will reach to such a great” con­clu­sion ! May God give you atleast 1gm of brain ! It is a well known fact that Hitler was a faith­ful Christian.”

    No it isn’t because he was­n’t and he said so. Often.

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:“It was the British Chris­t­ian Ter­ror­ists who first loot­ed the tril­lions and tril­lions of dol­lars worth wealth of Indi­ans. They made India a poor coun­try. They encour­aged the Indi­ans to fight in the name of reli­gions. They force­ful­ly con­vert­ed Indi­ans to Chris­tian­i­ty. And they trained the Indi­ans to lick their dirty boots. Even in the last sec­onds of their stay in that coun­try, they played a lot of dirty tricks on them. They cut their coun­try away and told them that it is because of Mus­lims their coun­try split. Believ­ing this lie, some Hin­du fanat­ics butchered thou­sands of Mus­lims. Gand­hi raised his voice against this feroc­i­ty. So they killed him.”

    This is just para­noia and lies. No Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists. They did not loot tril­lions and in so far as they took any­thing, they also gave India a lot. You only have to look at the pop­u­la­tion fig­ures to see that under British rule India pros­pered. India was not made a poor coun­try by any­one but the Mus­lims. They tried not to con­vert any­one to Chris­tian­i­ty for­ci­ful­ly or not. Your com­ments do not deserve a response. The Mus­lims insist­ed on split­ting their coun­try. The British did not make them. The only real slaugh­ter was of Sikhs and Hin­dus by Mus­lims. In oth­er places the Hin­dus defend­ed themselves.

  25. In response to Anti­Dog­ma.

    » I have noticed one thing. You enjoy quot­ing the Old Tes­ta­ment, when Christ made sweep­ing reforms to change those very things.

    Real­ly?!! Then what about this ? » Matthew 5:17 :
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets : I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

    Actu­al­ly, even the above quot­ed verse is unnec­es­sary to refute your boast­ings. Why ? Jesus is a God, accord­ing to Bible itself. So the vers­es in OT are noth­ing but the guide­lines” giv­en by Jesus. Chris­tians have no way out of this mess !

    » For the unini­ti­at­ed, the Bible is divid­ed into 2 parts : Old Tes­ta­ment (Before Christ) and New Tes­ta­ment (After Christ).

    Divid­ing Bible with the mea­sure of Before Christ” and After Christ” is the best exam­ple for the best act of stu­pid­i­ty”. There are no such things like Before Christ” and After Christ”, as Jesus him­self told that he was in exis­tence even before Abra­ham. See » Before Abra­ham was I am. (John 8:58)”.

    » If we lived by the Old Tes­ta­ment, we would not have wom­ens rights, free edu­ca­tion for all, we would have racism, geno­cide and eye-for-an-eye” ideologies.

    You would not have the above said things if you lived by the New Tes­ta­ment either. If you enjoy any kind of free­dom in your coun­try, bear in mind that it is not because of New Tes­ta­ment. If women in your coun­try feel equal­i­ty with men, it is because they fought for it, they shed their blood and tears for it. Racism and geno­cide have been the monop­o­lies of the Bible and its fol­low­ers. No oth­er scrip­tures had showed the audac­i­ty to play with that fire. eye-for-an-eye” ide­ol­o­gy was first coined by no oth­er scrip­ture than your Holy” Bible.

    Here are some quotes for you, just enjoy !

    [Judg. 21:10] Go and smite the inhab­i­tants of Ja’-besh-gil’ead with the edge of the sword ; also the women and the lit­tle ones. Every male and every woman that has lain with a male YOU SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY.”

    Tim­o­thy 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slav­ery should con­sid­er their mas­ters wor­thy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teach­ing may not be slandered.”

    Again,

    Peter 2:18 Slaves, sub­mit your­selves to your mas­ters with all respect, not only to those who are good and con­sid­er­ate, but also to those who are harsh.”

    One more,

    Colos­sians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earth­ly mas­ters in every­thing ; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sin­cer­i­ty of heart and rev­er­ence for the Lord.”

    Wom­en’s rights, free edu­ca­tion, war against racism and geno­cide, all of these were the fruits of var­i­ous rev­o­lu­tions stormed in West­ern world in the pre­vi­ous cen­turies. Europe had been under the dic­ta­to­r­i­al rul­ing of Chris­t­ian priests with Bible in their right hands. Kings and states­men were only their toys. Peo­ple were burned alive only for open­ing their mouth against these injustices.

    Indeed, the New Tes­ta­ment was out there before these rev­o­lu­tions took place and there was no equal right for women, free edu­ca­tion and so, but there was racism, geno­cide, slav­ery and all kinds of dark­ness spon­sored by your Holy” Bible.

    » When talk­ing about the cru­sades, remem­ber that the cru­sades were to keep the Mus­lims out of Europe.

    Mus­lims had been claim­ing the above state­ment for cen­turies that cru­sades were racial. So you agree with them ! Thank you very much for being the first fanat­ic Chris­t­ian to raise his voice against crusade”. 

    » The cru­sades occured over 1000 years ago between Chris­tians and Muslims.

    Let me cor­rect an error in your statement,

    The cru­sades occured over 1000 years ago against Mus­lims by Christians”.

    » Just 5 years ago, I saw Mus­lims ter­ror­ists crash­ing aero­planes into buildings.

    Thank you for watch­ing that. 

    » I do not see Chris­tians teror­rists doing the same.

    Pity on you ! Watch any chan­nels oth­er then CNN. Then you shall see Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists crash­ing their aero­planes and car­pet bomb­ing on every atom and mol­e­cules in Iraq and Afgan­istan or any oth­er places in this globe, killing mil­lions of inno­cent peo­ple includ­ing babies, women and old folks alike.

    These Mus­lim ter­ror­ists”, you saw just 5 years ago, crash­ing aero­planes into build­ings, were try­ing to retal­i­ate for the act of ter­ror­ism com­mit­ted for cen­turies, by these state-spon­sored Chris­t­ian terrorists.

    The big joke here is that these Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists showed the guts to jus­ti­fy their crimes by say­ing that they were try­ing to install democ­ra­cy” in these regions. Why don’t they inter­fere in Chi­na, Korea and oth­er mil­i­tar­i­ly pow­er­ful coun­tries ? There is no democ­ra­cy in these coun­tries ! I shall tell you the rea­son. These Chris­t­ian ter­ror­ists will get their ass­es burned if they dare to touch these countries !

    » After 1000 years, what has changed ?

    Noth­ing has changed yet. Chris­tians are still barbarians.

    » George Bernard Shaw : You do realise he was a social­ist-Marx­ist, extreme­ly ingrained with the belief that Com­mu­nism was the way for­ward, and if that were true, the end of religion.

    So what ?

    » He also sup­port­ed Nazism stat­ing that Jews in con­cen­tra­tion camps died of overcrowding.

    Cer­tain­ly, He was a very good schol­ar who also jokes !

    » You are quot­ing an Anti-Semite.

    Anti-Semit­ic blabla ! There was a time when peo­ple feared of being accused of Anti-Semi­te. Not anymore !

    » So if he holds Hitler in high regard, and you claim he holds Muham­nad in high regard too… draw your own conclusions.

    Only the peo­ple like you will reach to such a great” con­clu­sion ! May God give you atleast 1gm of brain ! It is a well known fact that Hitler was a faith­ful Christian.

    » Gand­hi : Here was a guy who preached non-vio­lence, reached to the Har­i­jan and pro­mot­ed good­will and got shot by a Hin­du rad­i­cal. Seems like a great guy to quote. Prob­lem is, he got shot for giv­ing up Pak­istan as a pay­ment” to the Mus­lims. Why is it so bad to pay the Mus­lims ? The rea­son for pay­ing the Mus­lims accord­ing to Gand­hi insid­ers and crit­ics, is that Gand­hi did not want to share power !

    You are insult­ing Mahat­ma Gand­hi, though unnec­es­sary. It was the British Chris­t­ian Ter­ror­ists who first loot­ed the tril­lions and tril­lions of dol­lars worth wealth of Indi­ans. They made India a poor coun­try. They encour­aged the Indi­ans to fight in the name of reli­gions. They force­ful­ly con­vert­ed Indi­ans to Chris­tian­i­ty. And they trained the Indi­ans to lick their dirty boots. Even in the last sec­onds of their stay in that coun­try, they played a lot of dirty tricks on them. They cut their coun­try away and told them that it is because of Mus­lims their coun­try split. Believ­ing this lie, some Hin­du fanat­ics butchered thou­sands of Mus­lims. Gand­hi raised his voice against this feroc­i­ty. So they killed him.

    » Lamar­tine : French Catholic who led efforts to the abo­li­tion of slav­ery and death penal­ty, as well as the enshrine­ment of the right to work. He sup­port­ed democ­ra­cy and paci­fism. No won­der you like him.

    No won­der you dis­like him ! Because you are a Chris­t­ian to the core.

    » He is basi­cal­ly the guy who opened France up to Arab immigrants.

    France did the same bru­tal­i­ty towards Arabs, like their British coun­ter­parts did towards Indi­ans in India. 

    » Need I say more ?

    It is more than enough for an aver­age per­son to reach to the con­clu­sion that you are a per­fect Chris­t­ian” (species of self-deceiv­ing hypocrite)! 

  26. heman said on 3 Octo­ber 2006:“And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. THEY IMITATE THE SAYING OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE OF OLD. ALLAH (HIMSELF) FIGHTETH AGAINST THEM (Ara­bic : qaata­lahu­mu llahu anna yu’fakoona– Lit­er­al­ly-May Allah KILL THEM) . HOW PERVERSE ARE THEY ! S. 9:30
    —– — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — – — — — — — — —
    screw­baaal the QAAF in this verse is stretched becuase of an alif​.it doesn’t mean kill you shamoun worshipper.”

    Hmmm. Three trans­la­tions of the Quran :

    009.030
    YUSUFALI : The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Chris­tians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a say­ing from their mouth ; (in this) they but imi­tate what the unbe­liev­ers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them : how they are delud­ed away from the Truth !
    PICKTHAL : And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. They imi­tate the say­ing of those who dis­be­lieved of old. Allah (Him­self) fight­eth against them. How per­verse are they !
    SHAKIR : And the Jews say : Uzair is the son of Allah ; and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah ; these are the words of their mouths ; they imi­tate the say­ing of those who dis­be­lieved before ; may Allah destroy them ; how they are turned away !

    It looks pret­ty much what Shamoun says it does to me. Can you explain why at least two of the three trans­la­tors here got it wrong ?

  27. And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. THEY IMITATE THE SAYING OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE OF OLD. ALLAH (HIMSELF) FIGHTETH AGAINST THEM (Ara­bic : qaata­lahu­mu llahu anna yu’fakoona– Lit­er­al­ly-May Allah KILL THEM) . HOW PERVERSE ARE THEY ! S. 9:30
    —– — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — – — — — — — — —
    screw­baaal the QAAF in this verse is stretched becuase of an alif​.it does­n’t mean kill you shamoun worshipper.

    and if they fight you those who dis­be­lieve they will cer­tain­ly retreat turn­ing their backs.” 48:22

    the QAAAF in this verse is strectched aswell because of an alif that is on TOP OF the QAAF just like for QAAAta­lahu in surah taw­bah above.

    if we were to fol­low your love shamoun’s iterpretation,then the ayah would read like, and if they KILL you those who dis­be­lieve they will cer­tain­ly retreat turn­ing their backs.”

    see the absur­di­ty of blind­ly wor­ship­ping sham shamoun ?

  28. mujaahid said on 30 Sep­tem­ber 2006:“Christinas are killers , Racists , they like to kill human being. at least in every chris­tians fam­i­ly , some of they killed human being , they are evil crea­tures who belives in white race to dom­i­nate the world . here are some links , you will find how they evil crea­tures. god crea­tured human being( non-white) and evil crea­tures( white peo­ple) …….. so , have to live endur­ing and fight­ing their crimes .( http://​www​.msnbc​.msn​.com/​i​d​/​7576505/ Pope’s Nazi past : Bene­dict XVI for­mer Hitler Youth member )”

    Uh huh. I would ask the Mod­er­a­tor whether it is their pol­i­cy to allow such vicious­ly racist and hate-filled mate­r­i­al on their site. How accept­able if the word Chris­t­ian” was replaced by the word Mus­lim”? Sure, Bene­dict was a for­mer mem­ber of the Hitler Youth. At that stage mem­ber­ship in Ger­many was com­plu­so­ry. So what ? At least he did not vol­un­tar­i­ly sup­port the Nazis like Anwar Sadat or the late Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

  29. Christi­nas are killers , Racists , they like to kill human being. at least in every chris­tians fam­i­ly , some of they killed human being , they are evil crea­tures who belives in white race to dom­i­nate the world . here are some links , you will find how they evil crea­tures. god crea­tured human being( non-white) and evil crea­tures( white peo­ple) .….… so , have to live endur­ing and fight­ing their crimes .( http://​www​.msnbc​.msn​.com/​i​d​/​7576505/ Pope’s Nazi past : Bene­dict XVI for­mer Hitler Youth member )

    – ( http://​www​.world​freein​ter​net​.net/​a​r​c​h​i​v​e​/​a​r​c​12​.​htm Address­ing the Removal” of Native Americans,
    and the Sub­ver­sion of Nat­ur­al Culture )

    –http://​www​.nemasys​.com/​g​h​o​s​t​w​o​l​f​/​N​a​t​i​v​e​/​g​e​n​o​c​i​d​e​.​s​h​tml Spir­i­tu­al and Cul­tur­al Genocide…

    –http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~cale/cs201/apartheid.hist.html The His­to­ry of Apartheid in South Africa

    http://​www​.holo​caust​for​got​ten​.com/​L​u​c​a​i​r​e​.​htm POLAND’S HOLOCAUST : 6 MILLION CITIZENS DEAD
    (3 MILLION CHRISTIANS + 3 MILLION JEWS)
    BUT DON’T THE 3 MILLION CHRISTIANS COUNT ?
    by Edward Lucaire

    the bove links are some of chris­tians crimes com­mit­ed against human race . read it ,

  30. chris­tian­i­ties jus­ti­fi­ca­tion for killing jews came from the nt.

    quote
    All the peo­ple [Jews] answered and said, his blood be upon us and on our chil­dren.” (Matthew 27:25)

    Most fun­da­men­tal­ists will argue that the per­pe­tra­tors of the his­to­ry of atroc­i­ties against the Jews were not true” Chris­tians. How­ev­er, accord­ing to many his­to­ri­ans, it is pre­cise­ly such New Tes­ta­ment rhetoric that is respon­si­ble for cre­at­ing the atmos­phere in which such events could transpire.end quote

  31. This is just anoth­er oppor­tu­ni­ty for Mus­lims to stir up their own com­mu­ni­ties against the West.
    What with all the rhetoric against the West, I would sug­gest Mus­lims get their own house in order.If Mus­lim world’s anger can sim­ply be aroused by a quote, it’s prob­a­bly time to get some anger management.

  32. MENJ says:“What we would like to know is, how could Pope Bene­dict XVI have quot­ed from a pow­er-crazy emper­or whose hos­til­i­ty towards Islam was well-known?”

    Pow­er-crazy ? Where is the evi­dence that this poor Emper­or — who was only try­ing to defend his home­land and peo­ple — was pow­er-crazy ? Is it fair to say that your com­ment is just a gra­tu­itous smear ? Hos­til­i­ty to Islam ? You don’t think that try­ing to save your coun­try from coloni­sa­tion and your peo­ple from slav­ery might incline you a lit­tle to hos­til­i­ty ? What did Islam do that would make any Greek love it ?

    MENJ says:“In the eleventh cen­tu­ry, the West­ern Chris­tians thought the time had come to turn the tables of history.”

    True. For 300 years they had been attacked by Mus­lims — with­out jus­ti­fi­ca­tion — and now they felt it was time to defend themselves.

    MENJ says:“The Cru­sades were launched with dis­as­trous con­se­quences to Chris­t­ian-Mus­lim and Mus­lim-Chris­t­ian relations.”

    Well no. Defend­ing your­self can nev­er have dis­as­trous con­se­quences. That was caused by the inva­sion of Chris­t­ian coun­tries like Syria.

    MENJ says:“His pre­de­ces­sor, Pope Urban II, was the per­son who first coined the term holy war” (which, it should be not­ed, is alien to Mus­lim thought)”

    Explain to me the dif­fer­ences between jihad” and Cru­sade”. Holy War looks com­mon to both as far as I can see except that Islam coined the term first.

    MENJ says:“In his speech, Pope Urban II called for col­o­niza­tion of the Mus­lim world :

    For you must has­ten to car­ry aid to your brethren dwelling in the East, who need your help, which they have often asked.”

    Notice that all the Pope is doing is ask­ing Euro­pean Chris­tians to help Syr­i­an Chris­tians who not only need­ed Euro­pean help but had often asked for it — he was not call­ing for the coloni­sa­tion of any­where, but the lib­er­a­tion of the indige­nous pop­u­la­tion of Palestine.

    MENJ says:“It should be not­ed that all Jews, Mus­lims and non-Catholic Chris­tians were mas­sa­cred dur­ing the Cru­sades, espe­cial­ly dur­ing the con­quest of Jerusalam in the First Cru­sades War.”

    That is not true. There were iso­lat­ed mas­sacres but they did not mas­sacre every­one. Indeed as Ibn Jubayr makes clear Mus­lim peas­ants pref­ered to be ruled by Chris­t­ian Cru­saders than by their fel­low Muslims.

    MENJ says:“For eight cen­turies, Islam had been the faith not only of immi­grant Arabs and Berbers but of native Spaniards who were always the major­i­ty. The Inqui­si­tion” made no dif­fer­en­ti­a­tion ; and it brought to an end one of the most glo­ri­ous chap­ters in the his­to­ry of inter-reli­gious liv­ing and co-operation.”

    Well inter-reli­gious liv­ing and co-oper­a­tion” in the same sense that Euro­pean colo­nial­ism was as well. Care to point out what Mus­lim Spain had that French Alge­ria did not ?

    MENJ:“The dam­age that the Pope had done, whether con­scious­ly or uncon­scious­ly, have cer­tain­ly undone the peace-mak­ing efforts and bridg­ing of rela­tions by his pre­de­ces­sor, who was also the first Pope to step foot into a mosque when he vis­it­ed the Umayyad Mosque in Dam­as­cus and paid a vis­it to the grave of the Prophet Yahya (John the Bap­tist). The cur­rent Pope is nowhere as mag­namious as his pre­de­ces­sor and clear­ly he is try­ing to reverse the efforts the pre­vi­ous Pope. How­ev­er he should not be igno­rant of facts. Free­dom of expres­sion should not include lies.”

    JP2 did noth­ing to make peace with Mus­lims because noth­ing he offered received any response except more vio­lence. It is the years of JP2 that saw the rise of sui­cide bomb­ing and ter­ror­ism in Europe after all. I doubt that JP2 was the first to step inside a mosque, but it is worth point­ing out that the Umayyd Mosque in Dam­as­cus is actu­al­ly a Church. The Mus­lims took it when they invad­ed Chris­t­ian Syr­ia. What facts has the Pope been igno­rant of ? And if free­dom of expres­sion is to mean any­thing it must include lies — oth­er­wise it is meaningless.

  33. Anti­Dog­ma said on 21 Sep­tem­ber 2006 : I have noticed one thing. You enjoy quot­ing the Old Tes­ta­ment, when Christ made sweep­ing reforms to change those very things.
    MR. are you sure ??? you dont even know your bibles . let cor­rect you , by this verse from you bibles the so CALLED old tes­ta­ments that you think no longer valid . ” THINK NOT that I came to destroy the law or the prophets : I came not to destroy, but to ful­fil.” – MATTHEW 5:17 then , who is reformer ? jesus(pbuh) ? you ? your church ? for how long you keep lying to your self ??

    http://​www​.evil​bible​.com/​M​u​r​d​e​r​.​htm

  34. Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth : I came not to send peace, but a sword

    fave verse from bible :-D

  35. I can prove that the NT allows rape of female slaves, just like the OT. Christ estab­lished noth­ing ! What did he say about the two most fun­da­men­tal ques­tions fac­ing all human communities:(a) how do we solve val­ue dif­fer­ences ? (b) How do we dis­trib­ute scarce resources ? Chris­tian­i­ty makes no attempt what­so­ev­er to answer these questions.

  36. I have noticed one thing. You enjoy quot­ing the Old Tes­ta­ment, when Christ made sweep­ing reforms to change those very things.

    For the unini­ti­at­ed, the Bible is divid­ed into 2 parts : Old Tes­ta­ment (Before Christ) and New Tes­ta­ment (After Christ).

    If we lived by the Old Tes­ta­ment, we would not have wom­ens rights, free edu­ca­tion for all, we would have racism, geno­cide and eye-for-an-eye” ide­olo­gies. Oh wait.. that sounds like Islam­ic ide­olo­gies ! Christ’s mes­sage was to change all that.

    When talk­ing about the cru­sades, remem­ber that the cru­sades were to keep the Mus­lims out of Europe. The cru­sades occured over 1000 years ago between Chris­tians and Mus­lims. Just 5 years ago, I saw Mus­lims ter­ror­ists crash­ing aero­planes into build­ings. I do not see Chris­tians teror­rists doing the same. After 1000 years, what has changed ?

    About the peo­ple you quoted :

    George Bernard Shaw : You do realise he was a social­ist-Marx­ist, extreme­ly ingrained with the belief that Com­mu­nism was the way for­ward, and if that were true, the end of reli­gion. He also sup­port­ed Nazism stat­ing that Jews in con­cen­tra­tion camps died of over­crowd­ing. You are quot­ing an Anti-Semi­te. So if he holds Hitler in high regard, and you claim he holds Muham­nad in high regard too… draw your own conclusions.

    Philip Schaff : Charged by the Catholic church for heresy but unan­i­mous­ly acquit­ed. He died more than 100 years ago and his writ­ings have since been superceed­ed by new infor­ma­tion derived through fields called sci­en­tif­ic research and anthro­pol­o­gy. Per­haps not the best example.

    Gand­hi : Here was a guy who preached non-vio­lence, reached to the Har­i­jan and pro­mot­ed good­will and got shot by a Hin­du rad­i­cal. Seems like a great guy to quote. Prob­lem is, he got shot for giv­ing up Pak­istan as a pay­ment” to the Mus­lims. Why is it so bad to pay the Mus­lims ? The rea­son for pay­ing the Mus­lims accord­ing to Gand­hi insid­ers and crit­ics, is that Gand­hi did not want to share power !

    Michael H. Hart : Using this guy is a joke. His rep­u­ta­tion is no dif­fer­ent from Afghanistan. All bombed up and deplet­ed. After com­plet­ing his book The 100 : A Rank­ing of the Most Influ­en­tial Per­sons in His­to­ry’, lets have a look at his next works.

    The 100 : A Rank­ing of the Most Influ­en­tial Per­sons in His­to­ry, 1978
    Extra-Ter­res­tri­als, Where Are They ? (co-edit­ed with Ben Zuck­er­man), 1982
    A View from the Year 3000

    Great, a sci-fi buff. Can I quote David Duchovny next ?

    Lamar­tine : French Catholic who led efforts to the abo­li­tion of slav­ery and death penal­ty, as well as the enshrine­ment of the right to work. He sup­port­ed democ­ra­cy and paci­fism. No won­der you like him. He is basi­cal­ly the guy who opened France up to Arab immi­grants. I can­not imag­ine you quot­ing some­one like John Howard.

    Any­way, about Lamar­tine, He was an unsuc­cess­ful can­di­date to the pres­i­den­tial elec­tion of Decem­ber 10, 1848. It seems his fol­low­ers desert­ed him on the grounds that he was too will­ing to con­cede ground and was not tough enough. Need I say more ?

  37. I chal­lenge Quen­nel Gail to a debate on Does the NT allow slaves to be raped?”

  38. why did­nt chris­tian­i­ty bring these things ? rather what we find in chris­tian­i­ty is that it is allowed to kill women and chil­dren, I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME ONE VERSE FROM THE NT that says dont kill women and chil­dren, the OT war com­mands have nev­er been abro­gat­ed, there­fore you are still allowed to kill women and chil­dren. filthy christianity.”

    Furster, as I stat­ed before, we have clear cas­es of Chris­t­ian fun­damen­nal­ism sup­port­ing a Zion­ist state that is run­ning on the prin­ci­ples of racism plain and sim­ple. Fur­ther, this nation has
    vio­lat­ed almost every sin­gle Gene­va Con­ven­tion on Human Rights, and your talk­ing as if Christi­na fun­damet­nal­ism has no respon­si­bil­i­ty to play in this. The ties between the neo­con­ser­v­a­tives and Israel is so well known, it is not even a point of dis­pute any­more. Are they sup­port­ing Israel for any oth­er sake than the fact that God declared it Holy in the Bible ? ”

    The Chris­t­ian Right is giv­ing Israel count­less of mil­lions, if not bil­lions of dol­lars to
    Israel with­out account­abil­i­ty. The Chris­tain Right wants to raise the Tem­ple of Solomon over Aqsa, sup­port­ing the extrem­ists in Israel ? Why ? ”

  39. BIBLE TELLS CHRISTIANS KILL ALL NONE WHITE RACE “” Now there­fore kill every male among the lit­tle ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.But all the women-chil­dren, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for your­selves.”– NUMBERS 31:17 – 18 For good­ness sake, will they hear, will white peo­ple hear what we are try­ing to say ? Please, all we are ask­ing you to do is to rec­og­nize that we are humans, too.” — BISHOP DESMON TUTU Chris­tians white are get­ting ready to for geno­cide , human­be­ing have full rights to def­fend them self . VICTORY TO human­i­ty .!!!!!!!! we humans have to unite for our EXISTANCE , NAZIS are on RISE ABOUT ANN to KILL !!

  40. pope wor­ships satan

    And if a king­dom is divid­ed against itself, that king­dom can­not stand. (Mk. 3:24, cf. 3:25 – 26 ; Mt. 12:25 ; Lk. 11:17 – 1)

    To make mat­ters worse, Jesus pro­claims that belief in him will set father against son, moth­er against daugh­ter, and every­one against every­one else (Luke 12:51 – 53 ; Matthew 10:34 – 36). In oth­er words, he will divide his own house. By his own rea­son­ing, does­n’t that mean his own house is doomed to fall?”

  41. Rape isn’t implied ? It prac­ti­cal­ly slaps you in the face :

    Num­bers 31 (ASV)
    17
    Now there­fore kill every male among the lit­tle ones, and kill every woman that
    hath known man by lying with him.

    18
    But all the women-chil­dren, that have not known man by lying with him, keep
    alive for yourselves.

    Only girls that have not had sex are kept alive. Can you please explain for
    what oth­er pur­pose they were kept alive ?

    As slaves ? If so, why men­tion sex­u­al purity ?

    As work­er slaves ? If so, keep the boys alive because they are stronger than the
    women.”

    why is it that there was no prob­lem with sav­ing vir­gin girls but prob­lems sav­ing inno­cent can­naite fetus­es and babies ?

    maybe pope can show us where his pagan man god con­demns this in the nt.

    i would like to know why god of moses is PISSED with moses when he disobeys :

    Moses stur­ck the rock at Merib­ah and was pun­ished by being for­bid­den to enter the Promised Land. ”

    but when moses kill hun­dreds of inno­cent ppl, yhwh remains silent :

    Moses ordered the mas­sacre of thou­sands of pris­on­ers of war and was­n’t pun­ished at all ? Does not com­pute. Does not com­pute. Does not compute”

  42. *for­bid­ding the killing of women and chil­dren (not chris­t­ian and mus­lims although Islam did pro­hib­it us to kill mus­lims, and inno­cent chris­tians, the bible lets you kill all, inno­cent included)

  43. let me just show why are u stu­pid quen­nal, Islam did bring new things, 1- for­bid­ding alco­hol, 2- for­bid­ing the killing of chris­t­ian and muslims

    why did­nt chris­tian­i­ty bring these things ? rather what we find in chris­tian­i­ty is that it is allowed to kill women and chil­dren, I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME ONE VERSE FROM THE NT that says dont kill women and chil­dren, the OT war com­mands have nev­er been abro­gat­ed, there­fore you are still allowed to kill women and chil­dren. filthy christianity.

    sec­ond­ly, chris­tian­i­ty still makes peo­ple into drunk ani­mals, since it allows alco­hol con­sump­tion, did­nt your god know that alco­hol leads to sev­er­al prob­lems ? or was your god too stu­pid to real­ize the prob­lems of alco­hol that he nev­er pro­hib­it­ed it. hmm­m­mm not a very smart god if you ask me.

  44. are you quen­nal gale ?

  45. In the Pope’s com­ments he claimed that Islam did­n’t bring any­thing new and that Muham­mad brought inhu­mane prac­tices. He is right and the quran proves it :

    Say : I AM NO BRINGER OF NEW-FANGLED DOCTRINE AMONG THE MESSENGERS, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I fol­low but that which is revealed to me by inspi­ra­tion ; I am but a Warn­er open and clear.” S. 46:9

    Muham­mad ver­i­fies he did­n’t bring any­thing new. Pope Bene­dict was cor­rect. If Mus­lims are upset then they should fault their own stu­pid holy book.

    Nar­rat­ed Aisha and Abdul­lah bin Abbas :

    When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apos­tle came he start­ed putting his Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, MAY ALLAH CURSE THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS for they built the places of wor­ship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warn­ing (Mus­lims) of what those had done. (Sahih Bukhari, Vol­ume 1, Book 8, Num­ber 427)

    While in the Quran we find this :

    And the Jews say : Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Chris­tians say : The Mes­si­ah is the son of Allah. That is their say­ing with their mouths. THEY IMITATE THE SAYING OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE OF OLD. ALLAH (HIMSELF) FIGHTETH AGAINST THEM (Ara­bic : qaata­lahu­mu llahu anna yu’­fakoona– Lit­er­al­ly-May Allah KILL THEM) . HOW PERVERSE ARE THEY ! S. 9:30

    So Chris­tians should be killed for believ­ing what we want to believe. If this isn’t offen­sive I don’t know what is.

    And to warn those who say : Allah hath cho­sen a son, (A thing) where­of they have no knowl­edge, nor (had) their fathers, Dread­ful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. THEY SPEAK NAUGHT BUTLIE. S. 18:6 – 7

    Do you see us killing peo­ple and riot­ing over this verse ? Mus­lims are the biggest hyp­ocrites and this is why they want to shut peo­ple up. They’re no dif­fer­ent the KKK who want every­body to fol­low and be sub­ject­ed to them. This won’t happen.

    [Admin : Noth­ing but the usu­al cheap lies from Quen­nel Gale, copied from the whale Sham Shamu. Do not wor­ry about try­ing to get away with your pack of lies, we will cer­tain­ly deal with it once we respond to your pals at AI.]

  46. Who cares about Mus­lims being offend­ed. Islam isn’t above crit­i­cism just because Mus­lims don’t want Non-Mus­lims say any­thing bad about it. Mus­lims and the Quran speak bad about oth­er reli­gions all the time. But do they care if they are offend­ed ? No. If your reli­gious book claims to be from God and crit­i­cizes oth­er reli­gions then IN TURN YOUR RELIGION SHOULD BE SCRUTINIZED TO SEE IF IT IS ACTUALLY FROM GOD AND SHOULD ALSO BE SCRUTINIZED.

    Non-Mus­lims should­n’t live in a state of fear just because Mus­lims want us to bow down and blind­ly accept their reli­gious beliefs.

    [Admin : I guess you must be talk­ing about your­self since you cer­tain­ly don’t have any qualms start­ing an anti-Islam­ic web­site. But guess what ? Bis­mi­ka Allahu­ma exists because you do.]

  47. When the mis­sion­ar­ies came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said Let us pray.” We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.
    Desmond Tutu

  48. The hope of civ­i­liza­tion itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suf­frage.” A state­ment by a promi­nent 19th-cen­tu­ry south­ern Pres­by­ter­ian pas­tor, cit­ed by Rev. Jack Rogers, mod­er­a­tor of the Pres­by­ter­ian Church (USA).

  49. It was Fri­day the 8th of May, 1840, that is about a
    hun­dred and fifty years ago, at a time when it was a
    sac­ri­lege to say any­thing good about Muham­mad (pbuh),
    and the Chris­t­ian West was trained to hate the man
    Muham­mad (pbuh) and his reli­gion, the same way as dogs
    were at one stage trained in my coun­try to hate all black
    people.1 At that time in his­to­ry, Thomas Car­lyle, one of the
    great­est thinkers of the past cen­tu­ry deliv­ered a series of
    lec­tures under the theme — Heroes and Hero-wor­ship. ” http://​www​.muham​mad​.net/​m​g​/​m​u​h​a​m​m​a​d​G​18​.​htm

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