The Descent Of Jesus Son Of Mary, As Portrayed In The Quran

The Qur’an makes three references to the return of Jesus son of Mary (may peace be upon him) to the earth — i.e., his descent from the sky — in order to accomplish various tasks.

THE FIRST REFERENCE: is in Surah Nisaa’, verses 156-159. As for the context of these verses, Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed Jesus son of Mary — the Messenger of Allah. Thereupon Allah, the Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says,

“And because of their saying (boasting), ‘We killed Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so.”Sura’ an-Nisaa’ 4:157

We have learned from the preceding sections about the disciple who resembled Jesus and voluntarily sacrificed and ransomed himself, as has been specifically stated by the leading scholars of Islam.

SO WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED THEN? Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus son of Mary to the sky. His enemies, the Jews, failed to harm him, let alone kill and crucify him. This is a clear and unambiguous text that carries no room for another interpretation. It states clearly that Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus to Himself – bodily and his soul – in order to save him from the Jews murdering and crucifying him. Allah, the Exalted, says in the Quran,

“But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.”Sura’ an-Nisaa’ 4:158

So, if anyone claims that only the soul was raised, it would be incorrect, as is shown from the two following perspectives.

FIRSTLY, Allah made a mention of this raise in the context of refutation of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ. So, if it were that only the soul was raised, then that would actually mean an acknowledgment of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ – which is to remove his soul!

SECONDLY, if it were true that only his soul was raised, there would remain no distinction for Jesus above the rest. For all Prophets (peace be upon them), and in fact all believing Muslims, have their souls raised to the sky upon their death. So, does there remain anything that distinguishes Jesus, for which Allah makes a special marked mention in the Qur’an that He raised him?

After establishing this point, another Qur’anic verse follows in the same context of the ones that preceded. This one clearly bears evidence on another return of the Christ (peace be upon him) to the earth and that he will descend from the sky. The purpose of this is the crucial role he will play upon his return to the earth. Allah, the Exalted, says:

“And there is none of the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” Sura’ an-Nisaa’ 4:159

The verse presents the message in a future tense, so it is with regards to the events to come after the raising of the Christ. It informs that some of the People of the Book will believe in the Christ. But when will that be? It will be upon his descent, his return and coming onto the earth once again. Imam Tabari, the renowned scholar of the Qur’anic exegesis (may Allah cover him in mercy), explained this. He said:

The meaning of the verse ‘And there is none of the people of the Scripture but must believe in him’, that is: in Jesus, ‘before his death’, that is: before the death of Jesus. It is explained as follows: that all of them will affirm and acknowledge him when he descends to kill the Antichrist, thereafter, all the religion will give way to only the one, which is the pure upright religion of Islam – the religion of Abraham (may the peace be him). See Tafsir at-Tabari 4:356-357

THE SECOND REFERENCE in the Noble Qur’an to the imperative nature of the descent of Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, in order to complete the task that must be done on the earth, is found in Surah Zukhruf in the Qur’an. Allah, the Exalted, says in it,

“And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example (i.e., Jesus worshipped like their idols), behold, your people cry aloud (laugh out at the example). And say: Are our gods better or is he (i.e. Jesus)? They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people. He (i.e. Jesus) was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel (i.e. his creation without a father). And if it were Our Will, We would have (destroyed you all, and) made angels to replace you on the earth. And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path.”Sura’ az-Zukhruf 43:57-61

In another recitation, it is recited as “And he shall be a mark”. It means, a symbol, a portent, a sign of the Hour.See Fathu-l Qadeer of Shawkaani, (4/562) for references of those who read it so.

How can Jesus son Mary, be a sign of the Hour (Doomsday)? It cannot be except with his descent being in the last stage and period. His descent would then be a great sign and one of the major portents of the Hour – a sign that announces the closeness of its occurrence. This is how the verse has commonly been explained by the scholars of tafsir (exegesis of the Quran). Amongst them are Mujahid, Suddee, Qatada, Hasan al-Basri, Dahhaak and Ibn Zayd. It is also the saying of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him). They all have stated this explicitly, that Jesus son of Mary is one of the signs of the Hour in the sense that he will descend and rule the earth and dwell therein for forty years, as is mentioned in the authentic hadith, that will be mentioned shortly. And his descent will be one of the great signs of Allah and one of the supreme portents of the Hour.

THE THIRD REFERENCE TO IT IN THE QURAN The deduction from this text is indeed remarkable. One notes that there is hardly ever a mention of the story of Jesus (in the Quran) except that it is mentioned along with it that,

“He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood”Sura’ Aal `Imraan 3: 46, and Sura’ al-Maa’ida 5:110

In this, Allah mentioned two remarkable and rare events, that are also two dazzling signs (proofs) of Allah found in the character of Jesus Christ.

THE FIRST MATTER is that he spoke in the cradle while still an infant. This does not occur except as a miracle from Allah, the Mighty, and the Magnificent. That is why it has never occurred except with three people as has been established in the authentic hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him). See Saheeh Bukhari (4/201-202). So the speaking of Jesus (peace be on him) in the cradle was indeed a sign, and there was a need, and the circumstance called for it as the mother of Jesus came to be held in suspicion due to the birth, `how can a woman give birth without a husband?’ They even voiced this explicitly, as reported in the Quran, “Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman.” Sura’ Maryam 19:28

So, a miracle was required to prove her innocence and to prove that the birth was another such a miracle. Thus the infant spoke in the cradle, an extraordinary, unaccustomed event. But the verse couples this miraculous event, with the mention of another event – of him speaking as a middle-aged adult. But every one speaks at that age. So where is the miracle in that? The Arabic word used in the verse that refers to that stage of his life, is kuhoola, which is used for a person past the age of forty and up to the age of fifty or sixty years. Is it at all remarkable that one speaks at the age of sixty or even seventy?! So where is the miracle that is alluded to in this section of the verse which mentions that Jesus speaks as a middle aged man?

This shows that just as his speech in the cradle as an infant was a miracle, likewise he will descend and speak to the people as a middle aged man in the last stages of this world, making his descent and speech thereupon, also a miracle. Otherwise, there is no miracle in a sixty or seventy year old communicating by speech!

So the evidence from this section of the verse in the Qur’an that he will speak to the people as a middle-aged adult is from the following two perspectives.

FIRSTLY, some of the scholars of Islam, amongst them is ibn Musayyab, stated that Jesus son of Mary, was raised to the sky while he was at an age of thirty three years, in the prime of his youth (referred to in Arabic as shabaab, which is a stage prior to the one mentioned in the Quran, kuhoola). So he had not yet reached the stage of kuhoola.

SECONDLY, here comes the aspect of amazement, marvel and the miracle. The aspect, which bears evidence on the point, is that he speaks to the people as a middle-aged man (in kuhoola) after having been raised, and his being raised is indeed an astonishing event. And he will descend, and his descent is also another astonishing, remarkable event. He will then speak to the people and will live after his descent for forty years. This forty added to the thirty years makes him someone who would have reached the age of kuhoola, and having spoken at that age. He will then have spoken to the people as he spoke to them in the cradle. This is a clear and unambiguous indication that he (peace be upon him) will certainly complete his role and his part, and will descend towards the last stages and speak to the people as a middle-aged man, just as he spoke miraculously as an infant. Imam Tabari related from Abdurahman ibn Zayd that he said, “Jesus did indeed speak to them in the cradle, and he will speak to them when he kills the Antichrist, he will then be a kahl (middle-aged person).” Tafsir Tabari, 3/271

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16 responses to “The Descent Of Jesus Son Of Mary, As Portrayed In The Quran”

  1. canjo Avatar
    canjo

    The Descent Of Jesus Son Of Mary, As Portrayed In Quran

    I any muslim or non muslim brother and sister want to know what in fact Islam and Quran says ab
    ascend and desend of jesus; he/she MUST visit following. MOST AUTHENTIC INFO abt this TOPIC

    http://groups.google.com/group/PZSDFTP/web/was-jesus-son-of-mary-ascended

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  2. ROBINS Avatar
    ROBINS

    [Admin: Deleted for inappropriate language and referring to Muslims as “clowns”. Remember what site you are in, infidel.]

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  3. shadowofears Avatar
    shadowofears

    Many early Christian sects did not believe Jesus was crucified. Jesus laughed with joy:

    Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all. Those, then, who know these things have been freed from the principalities who formed the world; so that it is not incumbent on us to confess him who was crucified, but him who came in the form of a man, and was thought to be crucified, and was called Jesus, and was sent by the Father.

    (The Church Father Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Chapter XXIV.-Doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides)

    Notice how Iranaeus says “through ignorance and error” the Jews misapprehended, and crucified the wrong person. Amazingly, the Holy Quran harmonizes this account, stating that they follow error, conjecture, and ignorance:

    That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: (Al-Quran 4:157)

    The 1945 discovery of Gnostic texts at Nag Hammadi, Egypt unearthed a book called The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, where Jesus states:

    I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. (The Treatise of the Great Seth)

    “There are also several historical sources other than the Bible and the Qur’an which confirm that many of the early Christians did not believe that Jesus died on the cross…The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified…The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place”.

    (Jesus Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Ahmed Thompson, 1996 (revised edition. p47)

    “… Plotinus, who lived in the fourth century, tells us that he had read a book called The Journies of the Apostles which related the acts of Peter, John, Andrew, Thomas and Paul. Among other things, it stated that Jesus was not crucified, but another in his place, and therefore, he laughed at those who believed that they had crucified him”.

    (ibid, Jesus Prophet of Islam, 1991 edition. P. 37)

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  4. rainman Avatar
    rainman

    me:he said above that the pro jesus crowd probably had to keep thier mouth shut because they were in thier minority.

    Koyaanisqatsi :A common ridiculous apologetic.

    me:isn’t there a verse in the gospel of mark that says that if the jewish chief priests had nailed jesus on the day of the feast then the crowd may riot?

    Koyaanisqatsi:Indeed there is. Beginning of Mark 14 (NIV):

    1 Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. 2″But not during the Feast,” they said, “or the people may riot.”

    They fear a riot on the day of the Feast, which is two days away; then on the actual day, they not only do not fear a riot, but the presumably riot-ready crowd can now be so easily swayed.

    It’s a “miracle.” That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    —–

    > if there was no replacement of another that resembled esa on the
    > cross then why does ALLAH says “it was made to appear”? does the
    > arabic say “made” and “appear” in 4:157?

    No, it does not say that. Lakin shubbiha lahum means “But it is obscure to them.”

    > please inform me on this. i know that the verb “appear” does not
    > mean that a person has to witness something. appear can mean that
    > they had an impression that they killed esa.

    First know the actual history:

    Abraham asked ALLAH for an heir, and ALLAH gave him Isma’il, from whom would come a descendant who would “show them their ways” as ALLAH had shown Abraham his way. This descendant was known as the Messenger of the Covenant. Then Ishaq (Isaac) was born, and Abraham asked ALLAH for a distinction for Ishaq comparable to the distinction He had given Isma’il. ALLAH gave Abraham a nation of twelve princes among whom prophets would continue to be present until the coming of the Messiah; this nation would prepare the way for the Messenger of the Covenant and, when the Messiah came, would announce the imminent arrival ~ in Isma’il ~ of that Messenger of the Covenant. The Children of Israel promised to do this at Sinai.

    After the death of Solomon, the corrupt among the leaders of Israel forged The Lie ~ that the Messenger of the Covenant would come in Israel ~ and changed words from their places and twisted their tongues with The Book to propagate that Lie in Israel. Their first plan was to recruit the Messiah to that fraud on humanity, and he refused. Their backup plan was to discredit him by having him crucified, which the Torah called a curse. They failed at this as well. So they lied about it, claiming to have succeeded. The truth is that “neither did they kill him nor did they crucify him, but it is obscure to them.”

    Thus everything in the “New Testament” after the visit of ‘Isa to the Garden of Gethsemane ~ at least ~ is that false claim to have killed him, and a lie. Paul then went on to make ‘Isa into the Messenger of the Covenant based on this falsehood, to deceive the pagans of Europe and pit them against the true Messenger, which animosity persists today.

    There was no “crucifiction” event that involved ‘Isa in any way. The false claims of the corrupt of Temple Israel have no basis whatever, and for those who believe that Jesus was crucified, “it is obscure to them.” ALLAH did not help the corrupt with their lies by making something “seem like it.”

    Grammatically, shubbiha (with “u”) means “it is obscure,” and has no external direct object. To say “it was made to seem like IT” would be an Arabic word like tashabbaha (to be made to seem like) or more precisely tashabbahaha (to be made to seem like IT), or inshabbahaha (it seems like IT), always with an external object “IT” to which the subject is likened. None of these is the word in the Ayat.

    Shabbaha (with “a”) is an active verb with a direct object, and means “he made it to seem like.” It requires a following suffix, a direct object like -ha, to make the word shabbahaha, which means “he made it to seem like it.” Shubbiha is the passive verb, and has no external direct object ~ “it is obscure.” The active forms of all the verbs on this sh-b-h root have the “a” on the first consonant; the passive forms of all the verbs on this sh-b-h root have “u” instead. This is a basic rule of Arabic grammar. “Shubbiha” cannot support the translation “It was made to seem like it.”

    There was no crucifiction, it was a lie to discredit Jesus among the Children of Israel and to foster a resurrection of the Nimrodian “man-god” paganism for the people of Europe. The whole story was completely unknown among the Children of Israel for the first century after Jesus was present among them ~ otherwise, there would have been no apostle or disciples, none of the faithful of Israel would have followed an accursed man. All “substitution” theories are merely variations on The Lie.

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  5. Mujaahid Avatar
    Mujaahid

    The Bible its self claim jesus(pbuh) did NOT killed or Crucified.

    – ACCORDING to Bibles :

    JESUS(Pbuh) prayed To be saved from death : ” And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? “- MARK 15:34

    JESUS(pbuh) Saved from [ DEATH] : ” Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,”- HEBREWS 5:7

    The big Questions where Crucifiction come from ?? the answer is : FROM PAUL The devil , Read what he said …….

    RESURRECTION was paul’s ( NEW COMMANDEMENTS ) Teaching : ” And certain also of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, What would this babbler say? others, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached Jesus and the resurrection.And they took hold of him, and brought him unto the Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new teaching is, which is spoken by thee? “- ACTS 17:18-19

    Paul brought News things : ” For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.”- ACTS 17:19-20

    The above verses Clears Jesus(pbuh) from lies of PAULS and christians , that he was killed.

    Paul the devil said , Preach to foolish people( the gentile) that chris CRUCIFIED . so , those accepted that are what he said .

    ” but we PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;”- 1 Corinthians 1:23

    Reply
  6. baruch_shem Avatar
    baruch_shem

    Hei Arnold !
    It’s better for you to read the book The Jesus paper… It is very reliable and it was quite suprising to see that it was not Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified but instead it was “Chrestus” who created sedition in Jerusalem in order to launch a revolt against the Romans. Besides, if jesus is guilty of breaking the jewish law, he would be stoned to death, not Curicfied !!! Crucifixion is only a legal punishment or people who are a political threat to Rome, not to the jewish people…
    Jesus was never god or son of god !! That was a false accusation put by the Pharisees who were the puppet of the Sadduces !!! The fact is Jesus was a rebellious man !! He is actually really a political threat to Rome and their so-called Sadducess puppet !!! The sadducess know that one day he would claim back the throne of Israel. Judas iscariot was Judas of galilee, one of the most famous Zealot from the town of Galille. Galilee can be described as The “TIKRIT” of Israel where rebellions and revolts were launched against the Romans. It is a very hot spot during those days…. Jesus did also attempt to launch a revolt in the temple once…. Ask yourself : why did Jesus ask his deisciples to but swords ?? Why did Jesus said two swords is enough for our purpose ?? Well, one simple answer is Jesus was a Saccari….. an assasin… that’s right….
    He was involve in battles in order to restore cleanliness of the temple in Jerusalem…
    because the foundation of the temple in Jerusalem was actually being controlled by the puppets to the Romans… yeah…yeah… pontius Pilate, washing his hands so he is free from guilt of crucifiying Jesus…
    Only an insane person would believe that….. Actually, it was pontius Pilate who have full authority over the crucifixion because he is a Roman… the bible is just a cover up of the Romans guilts and crimes to the jewish people in Israel, making the jews look like a scapegoat !!!
    Actually, there are many groups jews in Israel did support Jesus..Jesus was actually the Messiah of Aaron and the King of Israel…It is only him who could restore back the clealiness of the holy temple in Jerusalem and free it by the disbelieveing sadducess and their roman counterparts…

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  7. Arnold Avatar
    Arnold

    rman, what does “it was made to appear” so mean? You say the crucufixion never took place. So how was it “made” to “appear” so and who made it appear so? If you think the Romans weren’t appeasing at all, then tell me why it was a custom to sometimes let one jew who was sentenced to death to go free. That practice is a fact, and that’s where the crowd chose barrabbas to go free instead of Jesus. You are totally full of it. Muslims have been trying to figure out a logical answer to 4:157 for years, and they still can’t come up with one. It was a poorly thought out attempt at bringing conflicting ideas of jews and christians together.

    So what happened to all the pro jesus jews? They probably had to keep their mouth shut as they were far from a majority and they held no power, unlike the Jewish leaders (pharisee) who demanded Jesus’ crucixion. As to why the Jewish officials wanted to ax him, it is clearly explained in the Bible. It was explained when Jesus cured the man’s hand right in front of the Jewish officials, and they complained that this was blasphemous because he was healing on the sabbath, which is against the rules, and they charged him with getting his powers from demons. It was also outlined when the Jewish officials asked Jesus about paying money to Ceasar. They were trying to trap him by getting him to say something against Ceasar so they could use it to get the Romans to crucify him.

    And the Bible does confirm that Pilate saw no wrong doing that Jesus did, since Jesus claimed he was king of the Jews and not a king like Ceasar. And Pilate could have cared less which of the two men he freed.

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  8. rman Avatar
    rman

    “And wherever he went–into villages, towns or countryside–they placed
    the sick in the marketplaces. They begged him to let them touch even
    the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed. ”

    “Why would “the people” (aka, “the Jews;” presumably the same
    multitudes–all of Judea, in fact, according to Mark–who came out to
    witness John announcing Jesus as more holy than he and who will baptize
    them all with the Holy Spirit, baptizing Jesus and presumably heard the
    voice of God proclaim, “”You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am
    well pleased,” and witnessed his healing “miracles” and blah, blah,
    blah–want Jesus crucified, particularly just after he was found to
    have committed no crime? ”

    “But he wasn’t considered a “false prophet” by John the Baptist and “the
    whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem” who heard
    John’s words and witnessed John baptizing Jesus and he wasn’t
    considered a “false prophet” by the whole town of Capernaum who
    witnessed his healing miracles and the result was that, “Jesus could no
    longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the
    people still came to him from everywhere,” or the, “large crowd from
    Galilee” and the many people who “came to him from Judea, Jerusalem,
    Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon,”
    who all cried out, “You are the Son of God,” or the total of nine
    thousand men who ate of the loves and fishes, or all the untold many
    who threw their cloaks on the ground for his “triumphal entry” in
    Jerusalem where everyone want around shouting, “”Hosanna! Blessed is he
    who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the coming kingdom of our
    father David! Hosanna in the highest!” ”

    we need to ask what the hell happended to all the pro jesus jews? were they part of the crowd that said “crucify him” if they were then why would they want a murderer free and thier flesh god nailed?

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  9. rman Avatar
    rman

    “Oh, so it was Jesus that made that other guy look like him. Jesus was the one who decieved. Jesus is supposedf to be a holy prophet of Islam. So a holy prophet plays little games and deceives people. But of course, as you know and believe about Jesus, he could never do this unless Allah gave him the power. So now we have God AND Jesus both being decievers. This gets better all of the time. ”

    You are an idiot.It is in your religion that without keeping the children of israel spiritually blind and without allowing judas to betray your flesh god the crucifixon of your flesh god wouldn’t of happened.It is in your religion.it is in your belief system that your flesh god planned this rightfrom the start.It is in your religion that his torah was used against him.I gave you a link showing QUR’AAN does not agree that the crucifion EVENT TOOK PLACE.

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  10. rman Avatar
    rman

    “Oh, and rainman. Another thing you did that was pretty funny is give all of these reason why the crucifixion never happened at all. But that’s not what the Quran says. So all of the peculiarities you were pointing out goes against even the Quran.”

    I gave you a link above to show you that according to the Qur’aan no man got replaced on the cross.I gave you a link to show you that according to the Qur’aan the crucifxion event didn’t take place.But you didn’t bother to check the link out.

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  11. rman Avatar
    rman

    “This is not true at all. They cared somewhat because a relatively satisfied people who are not angry, make for a good peaceful people to rule over. So in a matter as trivial as sacrificing a Jew, sure the Romans would kill a meaningless Jew if it kept the rest of the jews calm.”

    bang an innocent flesh god who commited no freaking crime against roman law and release a murderer for commiting a crime agaisnt roman law? you expect anyone to believe new testament lie? why would the butcher pilate who is ruling over weakling jews give 1 tiny hoot about jewish feeling?

    “So, again, you think the Romans were afraid of the Jewish peasents;
    afraid in a military sense and that this fear was so great that the
    release of a convicted criminal would be the only thing they could
    think of to stop them from rioting? This in turn, of course, is
    predicated on the fact that the Romans must have been incredibly stupid
    as to think this would actually appease the peasents they were there to
    rule as well as on the fact that the peasents were apparently so easily
    dissuaded by such a transparent gesture”

    “Why? What was the fear? That hundreds of thousands of old men, old
    women, infant children would suddenly do what they hadn’t done for
    years before if not for that one criminal release at Passover? That
    would be the tipping point that was just too damn hot to risk not
    doing? The Romans were that terrified; the Jewish peasents were that
    stupid as to be prevented from reallizing every other day of the year
    that all they needed to do was band together and riot and overthrow?”

    you see the problem mr ardnold with believeing the tripe of sh ite within the nt?

    Reply
  12. Arnold Avatar
    Arnold

    Oh, and rainman. Another thing you did that was pretty funny is give all of these reason why the crucifixion never happened at all. But that’s not what the Quran says. So all of the peculiarities you were pointing out goes against even the Quran. As far as two witnesses go, Pilate himself wanted to let him go. Yoiu erroneously claim that Rome didn’t care at all about what the Jews wanted. This is not true at all. They cared somewhat because a relatively satisfied people who are not angry, make for a good peaceful people to rule over. So in a matter as trivial as sacrificing a Jew, sure the Romans would kill a meaningless Jew if it kept the rest of the jews calm. As far as passover, maybe someone told you that you can not venture out more than 150 feet from your home and therefore these jews wouldn’t have been at this crucifixion. That rule is true. AFTER SUNSET.

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  13. Arnold Avatar
    Arnold

    “ALLAH does not decieve but the divided sects of christianity have deceived themselves.your man god orchestrated his death with the other members of trinity.”

    Oh, so it was Jesus that made that other guy look like him. Jesus was the one who decieved. Jesus is supposedf to be a holy prophet of Islam. So a holy prophet plays little games and deceives people. But of course, as you know and believe about Jesus, he could never do this unless Allah gave him the power. So now we have God AND Jesus both being decievers. This gets better all of the time.

    As far as the Christians deceiving themselves, this too is impossible. If Allah or Jesus wished to make someone else look like Jesus, what can the people possibly do but observe with their own eyes? That’s all they did and they observed what definitely appeared to be Jesus. That’s not their fault, it is the fault of whoever “made it appear so”, which would either be God or both God and Jesus.

    Here is the dictionaries first definition for “deceive”

    1. to mislead by a false appearance or statement; delude: They deceived the enemy by disguising the destroyer as a freighter.

    That is precisely what Allah or Allah and Jesus did. And they didn’t have to do this as it did nothing to save Jesus. And the results of this deception is the largest religion in the world with a cross as it’s symbol. Why did these Christians think Jesus was crucified? Because God went out of his way to make it appear that way. And again, there is no purpose for this in terms of saving or protecting Jesus

    Since it is established that God might deceive mankind if he sees fit, then how could we possibly know anything else that he might be deceiving about? We couldn’t. The only reason we don’t ask whether God is deceiving us or not is because of the trust we place in God that he would never deceive. If God deceives once, that trust is gone.

    So this was a really dumb story made up by Muhammad in an attempt to bring Christians and Jews together under him. But Muhammad didn’t see the logical problem with a deceiving God because he himself was a deciever.

    Reply
  14. rainman Avatar
    rainman

    ALLAH does not decieve but the divided sects of christianity have deceived themselves.your man god orchestrated his death with the other members of trinity.jews rejected your god becuase they believed that your man god brought a new brand of jewdaism that was against the torah.why would a man god want his own word used against him?

    http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/5899d4ff1a0aff2e?scoring=d&q=pauline&

    ” “[One thing] appeared like [another thing] to them” is not
    supported by the words ALLAH used in the Ayat until the word
    “shubbiha” is misconstrued to mean something it clearly does not say ~
    exclusively “for the sake of argument” over this non-event or “for the
    sake of interpretation” of it, both of which are proscribed by Q3:6.
    Where else in the Arabic language do you find “shubbiha” used to mean
    something like this?”

    the sanhedrin trial

    The (gospel) sum of the circumstances behind the arrest and trial betrays the fable behind the man-god. To wit:

    Two days before a most holy feast, Matthew has the high priests et al declining to subdue and kill the man of whom they object so as not to raise the ire of the Jewish citizenry. (26:1:4). Obviously Matthew in portraying the Jewish powers that be, felt that the crowd is more inclined to rail against the breaking of doctrine than to be riled at a man charged with political crimes.

    But then we witness a total about face per Matthew. The man Jesus who sat and ate his Passover meal which can only happen on the advent of this most holy day, is subsequently arrested by the minions of the Jewish leaders. (26:47:57)

    These same leaders, priests; elders; scribes, as Matthew would have us believe, shirked their duties to the laws of Moses as well as the flock in deference to hearing testimony against the man-god and held trial against him on the very same high holy day they arrested him. Finding him guilty, they advanced his conviction to two governing personages which obviously had nothing better to do in tumultuous Judea than to hear the case of Jews against another Jew–post haste.

    By morning, he is found guilty; is assaulted and paraded in front of a crowd of Jews who should have been observing the Passover; is marched through a few hundred feet of the Jerusalem streets; hung on a cross and conveniently dies at 3pm, long enough to bury him in Jewish custom before sunset.

    Of all of the throngs of believers the gospels would have us think followed Jesus and greeted him in his excursions throughout their towns, it would only have taken two to maintain the credibility of the man. But they all stayed home! Peter—the pontiff yet, lied to save himself, James, Matthew, John, Mary, Mary and Mary, Joseph, Lazarus and all the rest are nowhere to be found as character witnesses.

    Two witnesses! That is all that was required of Jewish law to proclaim one’s innocence. And not one from the multitude came forward. Instead, they all supposedly condemned the man to die. All the throngs who cheered on his arrival; all the familial members of those whom he raised from the dead, all the healed and fed–they all stayed home!

    Is this believable? Only to those who do not understand that the Romans under Pilate, as was succinctly stated by another poster, gave not one wit about the sensibilities of the Jews. Pilate, as was the governor, was all about Rome, appeasing his emperor and concerned only about those who threatened Roman rule. Some upstart who claimed to be king of the Jews and opposed by Jewish elders, hardly qualifies.

    The gospels as we have them are but the undated writings of authors unknown–a reflection of propaganda during the first few centuries of the common era.

    Reply
  15. Arnold Avatar
    Arnold

    We have learned from the preceding sections about the disciple who resembled Jesus and voluntarily sacrificed and ransomed himself, as has been specifically stated by the leading scholars of Islam.

    SO WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED THEN? Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus son of Mary to the sky. His enemies, the Jews, failed to harm him, let alone kill and crucify him. This is a clear and unambiguous text that carries no room for another interpretation. It states clearly that Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus to Himself – bodily and his soul – in order to save him from the Jews murdering and crucifying him. Allah, the Exalted, says in the Quran,

    “But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.”2

    This makes absolutely no sense at all. I can understand God raising Jesus up, but I can’t understand God then bothering to go out of his way to make someone else take Jesus’ place. Why the need to have any Crucifixion at all? Jesus was raised up, the Jews see he was special and they erred and that’s it. Why the need for the deception? Some suggest that Allah deceived them as a punishment. What? What kind of crazy idea is that? Deception is not punishment. When you punish, you want the punished to know what they did and why they are being punished. But the Jews experienced no punishment by being tricked into thinking they killed Jesus. And not only that, the Christians who didn’t kill Jesus and deserved no punishmnt were also deceived and punished for 600 years until Muhammad finally tells them the truth. Why? Makes no sense at all. And what did Allah gain from his deception? The largest religion in the world. And what about at Judgement day? The Jews and Christians wouldn’t be at fault for believing what they believe because Allah tricked them into believing it. Allah saved Jesus and then, went out of his way to fake a crucixion. If Allah want’s to deceive, there is nothing we can do about that and we are therefore blameless.

    Anyway, the whole notion of an all powerful being needing to deceive is kind of odd as well. Love, giuide, punish, even kill, but deceive? One wouldn’t need to bother if they were all powerful. Deception is only needeed when you are not all powerful.

    I never understood why all of this doesn’t sound silly to Muslims

    Reply
  16. xyy Avatar
    xyy

    Good post, i just found out your post at Malaysian Blogs Readers http://mylink.com.my . It basically list all new malaysian blog post automatically.

    Reply

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