We can­not afford to main­tain these ancient prej­u­dices against Islam

In the 12th cen­tu­ry, Peter the Ven­er­a­ble, Abbot of Cluny, ini­ti­at­ed a dia­logue with the Islam­ic world. I approach you not with arms, but with words,” he wrote to the Mus­lims whom he imag­ined read­ing his book, not with force, but with rea­son, not with hatred, but with love.” Yet his trea­tise was enti­tled Sum­ma­ry of the Whole Heresy of the Dia­bol­i­cal Sect of the Sara­cens and segued repeat­ed­ly into splut­ter­ing intran­si­gence. Words failed Peter when he con­tem­plat­ed the bes­tial cru­el­ty” of Islam, which, he claimed, had estab­lished itself by the sword. Was Muham­mad a true prophet ? I shall be worse than a don­key if I agree,” he expos­tu­lat­ed, worse than cat­tle if I assent!”

Peter was writ­ing at the time of the Cru­sades. Even when Chris­tians were try­ing to be fair, their entrenched loathing of Islam made it impos­si­ble for them to approach it objec­tive­ly. For Peter, Islam was so self-evi­dent­ly evil that it did not seem to occur to him that the Mus­lims he approached with such love” might be offend­ed by his remarks. This medieval cast of mind is still alive and well.

Last week, Pope Bene­dict XVI quot­ed, with­out qual­i­fi­ca­tion and with appar­ent approval, the words of the 14th-cen­tu­ry Byzan­tine emper­or Manuel II : Show me just what Muham­mad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhu­man, such as his com­mand to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” The Vat­i­can seemed bemused by the Mus­lim out­rage occa­sioned by the Pope’s words, claim­ing that the Holy Father had sim­ply intend­ed to cul­ti­vate an atti­tude of respect and dia­logue toward the oth­er reli­gions and cul­tures, and obvi­ous­ly also towards Islam”.

But the Pope’s good inten­tions seem far from obvi­ous. Hatred of Islam is so ubiq­ui­tous and so deeply root­ed in west­ern cul­ture that it brings togeth­er peo­ple who are usu­al­ly at dag­gers drawn. Nei­ther the Dan­ish car­toon­ists, who pub­lished the offen­sive car­i­ca­tures of the Prophet Muham­mad last Feb­ru­ary, nor the Chris­t­ian fun­da­men­tal­ists who have called him a pae­dophile and a ter­ror­ist, would ordi­nar­i­ly make com­mon cause with the Pope ; yet on the sub­ject of Islam they are in full agreement.

Our Islam­o­pho­bia dates back to the time of the Cru­sades, and is entwined with our chron­ic anti­semitism. Some of the first Cru­saders began their jour­ney to the Holy Land by mas­sacring the Jew­ish com­mu­ni­ties along the Rhine val­ley ; the Cru­saders end­ed their cam­paign in 1099 by slaugh­ter­ing some 30,000 Mus­lims and Jews in Jerusalem. It is always dif­fi­cult to for­give peo­ple we know we have wronged. Thence­forth Jews and Mus­lims became the shad­ow-self of Chris­ten­dom, the mir­ror image of every­thing that we hoped we were not — or feared that we were.

The fear­ful fan­tasies cre­at­ed by Euro­peans at this time endured for cen­turies and reveal a buried anx­i­ety about Chris­t­ian iden­ti­ty and behav­iour. When the popes called for a Cru­sade to the Holy Land, Chris­tians often per­se­cut­ed the local Jew­ish com­mu­ni­ties : why march 3,000 miles to Pales­tine to lib­er­ate the tomb of Christ, and leave unscathed the peo­ple who had — or so the Cru­saders mis­tak­en­ly assumed — actu­al­ly killed Jesus. Jews were believed to kill lit­tle chil­dren and mix their blood with the leav­ened bread of Passover : this blood libel” reg­u­lar­ly inspired pogroms in Europe, and the image of the Jew as the child slay­er laid bare an almost Oedi­pal ter­ror of the par­ent faith.

Jesus had told his fol­low­ers to love their ene­mies, not to exter­mi­nate them. It was when the Chris­tians of Europe were fight­ing bru­tal holy wars against Mus­lims in the Mid­dle East that Islam first became known in the west as the reli­gion of the sword. At this time, when the popes were try­ing to impose celiba­cy on the reluc­tant cler­gy, Muham­mad was por­trayed by the schol­ar monks of Europe as a lech­er, and Islam con­demned — with ill-con­cealed envy — as a faith that encour­aged Mus­lims to indulge their basest sex­u­al instincts. At a time when Euro­pean social order was deeply hier­ar­chi­cal, despite the egal­i­tar­i­an mes­sage of the gospel, Islam was con­demned for giv­ing too much respect to women and oth­er menials.

In a state of unhealthy denial, Chris­tians were pro­ject­ing sub­ter­ranean dis­qui­et about their activ­i­ties on to the vic­tims of the Cru­sades, cre­at­ing fan­tas­tic ene­mies in their own image and like­ness. This habit has per­sist­ed. The Mus­lims who have object­ed so vocif­er­ous­ly to the Pope’s den­i­gra­tion of Islam have accused him of hypocrisy”, point­ing out that the Catholic church is ill-placed to con­demn vio­lent jihad when it has itself been guilty of unholy vio­lence in cru­sades, per­se­cu­tions and inqui­si­tions and, under Pope Pius XII, tac­it­ly con­doned the Nazi Holocaust.

Pope Bene­dict deliv­ered his con­tro­ver­sial speech in Ger­many the day after the fifth anniver­sary of Sep­tem­ber 11. It is dif­fi­cult to believe that his ref­er­ence to an inher­ent­ly vio­lent strain in Islam was entire­ly acci­den­tal. He has, most unfor­tu­nate­ly, with­drawn from the inter­faith ini­tia­tives inau­gu­rat­ed by his pre­de­ces­sor, John Paul II, at a time when they are more des­per­ate­ly need­ed than ever. Com­ing on the heels of the Dan­ish car­toon cri­sis, his remarks were extreme­ly dan­ger­ous. They will con­vince more Mus­lims that the west is incur­ably Islam­o­pho­bic and engaged in a new crusade.

We sim­ply can­not afford this type of big­otry. The trou­ble is that too many peo­ple in the west­ern world uncon­scious­ly share this prej­u­dice, con­vinced that Islam and the Qur’an are addict­ed to vio­lence. The 911 ter­ror­ists, who in fact vio­lat­ed essen­tial Islam­ic prin­ci­ples, have con­firmed this deep-root­ed west­ern per­cep­tion and are seen as typ­i­cal Mus­lims instead of the deviants they real­ly were.

With dis­turb­ing reg­u­lar­i­ty, this medieval con­vic­tion sur­faces every time there is trou­ble in the Mid­dle East. Yet until the 20th cen­tu­ry, Islam was a far more tol­er­ant and peace­ful faith than Chris­tian­i­ty. The Qur’an strict­ly for­bids any coer­cion in reli­gion and regards all right­ly guid­ed reli­gion as com­ing from God ; and despite the west­ern belief to the con­trary, Mus­lims did not impose their faith by the sword.

The ear­ly con­quests in Per­sia and Byzan­tium after the Prophet’s death were inspired by polit­i­cal rather than reli­gious aspi­ra­tions. Until the mid­dle of the eighth cen­tu­ry, Jews and Chris­tians in the Mus­lim empire were active­ly dis­cour­aged from con­ver­sion to Islam, as, accord­ing to Qur’an­ic teach­ing, they had received authen­tic rev­e­la­tions of their own. The extrem­ism and intol­er­ance that have sur­faced in the Mus­lim world in our own day are a response to intractable polit­i­cal prob­lems — oil, Pales­tine, the occu­pa­tion of Mus­lim lands, the preva­lence of author­i­tar­i­an regimes in the Mid­dle East, and the west­’s per­ceived dou­ble stan­dards” — and not to an ingrained reli­gious imperative.

But the old myth of Islam as a chron­i­cal­ly vio­lent faith per­sists, and sur­faces at the most inap­pro­pri­ate moments. As one of the received ideas of the west, it seems well-nigh impos­si­ble to erad­i­cate. Indeed, we may even be strength­en­ing it by falling back into our old habits of pro­jec­tion. As we see the vio­lence — in Iraq, Pales­tine, Lebanon — for which we bear a mea­sure of respon­si­bil­i­ty, there is a temp­ta­tion, per­haps, to blame it all on Islam”. But if we are feed­ing our prej­u­dice in this way, we do so at our peril. We cannot afford to maintain these ancient prejudices against Islam 1Endmark

Comments

30 responses to “We can­not afford to main­tain these ancient prej­u­dices against Islam”

  1. Al-zarqawi Avatar
    Al-zarqawi

    Hei Gou or black dog is an SOB, thats why he choos­es the name Hei Gou inspired by his moth­er. This son of a dog does­n’t care about the truth and even would sup­port geno­cide to state his point, thats not scor­ing, its called islama­phobe seizure. I agree with Xman lets play hard­ball with this bastard.

  2. AbuBakr Avatar
    AbuBakr

    phew — this Heigou is full of hate & steam.
    Dav — The Bible has been changed so many times by so many peo­ple that one does­nt know which part is from God & which part is from men. Jesus pbuh only brought 1 Gospel and taught it in Ara­ma­ic. 300 years lat­er Emper­or Con­stan­tine chose 4 dif­fer­ent gospels for us from thou­sands of oth­ers. These 4 are all in greek lan­guage. No gospel exists in Jesus own lan­guage of Ara­ma­ic. You are already lost.
    God sent Quran to help you. Read it.

  3. dav Avatar
    dav

    Xman may God give you wis­dom to know what is good what is bad. Let’s not side tracked from the top­ic. Hope you can rea­son out the Bible and Quran and know the truth. If some­one else hates Islam it does­n’t mean Islam is the truth. What if some­one else loves Islam does it mean Islam is false ? Zion­ism, extreamism, paci­fism, what­ev­er name there is can it be a yard­stick to mea­sure the amount of truth/​lies ?

  4. dav Avatar
    dav

    :-) I know what I believe. I am a chris­t­ian. For me I believe God spoke to the nation of Israel and reveaal his love for all man­akind through Jesus Christ. I believe Satan would want to draw ppl away from Jesus in what­ev­er way he can and ppl are the very instru­ment he uses. So ppl must think first if what they are say­ing is what God want them to say. Will the end result of what they sayt leads oth­er ppl away from God and near­er to hell ? God will rejoice if we love one anoth­er and love Jesus. That is the rea­son behind Make God hap­py nd not the Satan”. I put my faith in Jesus. Sor­ry ! Mohammad(PBUH) not in the list of ppl I would want to depend on for my sal­va­tion. Even Mus­lims are asked to pray for him. I cer­tain­ly do not want to put my faith in him. I would rather pray for my love one and for my soul. :-)

  5. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    dav said on 25 Novem­ber 2006:“The Quran share the same root of the Torah and New Tes­ta­ment and have said the Injil of the Chris­tians and the Injil of the Quran are the same. How­ev­er mod­ern Mus­lim schol­ars have prob­lem rec­on­cil­ing both of the Injil. How to jus­ti­fy that they are the same when the word­ings and teach­ings are so dif­fer­ent ? Both can’t be right at the same time ? One of the Injil has to be faulty. If the phrophet had said the Injil is the same but in the mod­ern day found to be not and the Torah and New Tes­ta­ment seems to com­pli­ment each oth­er then this must be the works of the Jews. They must have cor­rupt­ed the Injil.”

    The Quran does not share the same roots as the Torah and the New Tes­ta­ment. Those two were pro­duced in Pales­tine in a Jew­ish con­text. The Quran was revealed in Ara­bia — thou­sands of kilo­me­ters away in a very dif­fer­ent cul­tur­al con­text. The Injil” of the Quran does not exist today, nor is there any evi­dence of it ever hav­ing exist­ed in the past. No ref­er­ence to it. No trace of it in oth­er works. Either it nev­er exist­ed or there has been a vast con­spir­a­cy for the last 2000 years to cov­er up what Jesus real­ly said. You can blame the Jews if you like but there is a sim­pler expla­na­tion about what Muhammed said.

    dav said on 25 Novem­ber 2006:“I would sin­cere­ly ask all to seek the truth. Impor­tant­ly are we to please our­self, our tra­di­tion­al way of thinking/​living, our spiritual/​politically lead­ers ? Or should our think­ing and beliefs of faith be pleas­ing to the Almight­ty God. If what we say or do are lead­ing to God then let rejoice togeth­er for we will be in the same heav­en. If our deeds leads oth­ers astray and make Satan tremen­dous­ly glad then u will have to answer to God after your life here on earth. Your spiritual/​political lead­ers are not there to answer on your behalf. They too will have to give their accounts to God.”

    I would sin­cere­ly ask you to seek the truth too — which is more like­ly, Muhammed got it wrong, or there is some vast con­spir­a­cy to sup­pressed the truth stretch­ing over 2000 years ? Your ques­tion is beg­ging the ques­tion in that it is designed to lead you to a par­tic­u­lar answer. How about are we to please our­selves, our tra­di­tion­al way of think­ing, our spir­i­tu­al lead­ers AND God?” See how you have exclud­ed a world of pos­si­bil­i­ties ? You assume that you know with any cer­tain­ty what God or Satan want. Apart from the obvi­ous­ly biased texts of your reli­gion, why do you have con­fi­dence that you know any­thing ? Muhammed will inter­cede with God for Mus­lims on the Last Day. Why can’t oth­er people ?

    dav said on 25 Novem­ber 2006:“I think friend­ship is a good thing. So if a scrip­ture can give a com­mand Do not take a Jew or a Chris­t­ian as a friend” Sura 5.51 lets think again. Jew n Chris­t­ian are all over the world now regar­dles of race. Why the choise of word is so spe­cif­ic to ppl of these 2 faiths?”

    Aren’t you chang­ing your reli­gion to suit your val­ues and not your val­ues to suit your religion ?

  6. dav Avatar
    dav

    Hi, I share Richard’s thoughts and way of approach to dis­cuss reli­gion. Unfor­tu­nate­ly he has left. I believe we should go to the basic, the Holy text of both Bible n Quran. The Bible con­sists of Old n New Tes­ta­ments. Old Tes­ta­ment have the books of Torah and all phrophets of Israel before Jesus Christ. The New Tes­ta­ment have the Gospel and record­ings of his dis­ci­ples. There are many ppl’s writ­ting and inter­est­ing­ly there is a sus­tain­ing sto­ry line and of phrophe­cies. Then came 600 years lat­er prophet Moham­mad (PBUH) receive rev­e­la­tion from an angel ask­ing him to recite the vers­es. Each time few sen­tences of vers­es were giv­en over sep­a­rat­ed peri­od of events. There were no record­ings of his rev­e­la­tions dur­ing his life time. Only through word of mouth and mem­o­ry. After the death of the prophet Moham­mad (PBUH) did his fol­low­er begin to com­pile all his words.

    The Quran share the same root of the Torah and New Tes­ta­ment and have said the Injil of the Chris­tians and the Injil of the Quran are the same. How­ev­er mod­ern Mus­lim schol­ars have prob­lem rec­on­cil­ing both of the Injil. How to jus­ti­fy that they are the same when the word­ings and teach­ings are so dif­fer­ent ? Both can’t be right at the same time ? One of the Injil has to be faulty. If the phrophet had said the Injil is the same but in the mod­ern day found to be not and the Torah and New Tes­ta­ment seems to com­pli­ment each oth­er then this must be the works of the Jews. They must have cor­rupt­ed the Injil.

    I would sin­cere­ly ask all to seek the truth. Impor­tant­ly are we to please our­self, our tra­di­tion­al way of thinking/​living, our spiritual/​politically lead­ers ? Or should our think­ing and beliefs of faith be pleas­ing to the Almight­ty God. If what we say or do are lead­ing to God then let rejoice togeth­er for we will be in the same heav­en. If our deeds leads oth­ers astray and make Satan tremen­dous­ly glad then u will have to answer to God after your life here on earth. Your spiritual/​political lead­ers are not there to answer on your behalf. They too will have to give their accounts to God.

    I think friend­ship is a good thing. So if a scrip­ture can give a com­mand Do not take a Jew or a Chris­t­ian as a friend” Sura 5.51 lets think again. Jew n Chris­t­ian are all over the world now regar­dles of race. Why the choise of word is so spe­cif­ic to ppl of these 2 faiths ?

    Reli­gion is a per­son­al deci­sion. It should be of free will and should not be pun­ished. Is once a Mus­lim always Mus­lim con­cept still stands ? If one is to apos­tate from Mus­lim faith then Sura 4.89 com­mands the per­son to be Hmmmm.….

    Can I exchange my prop­er­ty and life for heav­en ? No where in The Law(Torah) or the Bible(Gospel) is this men­tioned. Are we to slay and be slain for what ? Who’s cause ? Not men­tioned in The Law(Torah) and the Bible(Gospel). Very coin­ci­den­tal or will­ful­ly cho­sen date of the famous 9/​11/​2001 event ..Sura 9.111

    009.111
    YUSUFALI : Allah hath pur­chased of the believ­ers their per­sons and their goods ; for theirs (in return) is the gar­den (of Par­adise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain : a promise bind­ing on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an : and who is more faith­ful to his covenant than Allah ? then rejoice in the bar­gain which ye have con­clud­ed : that is the achieve­ment supreme.

    PICKTHAL : Lo ! Allah hath bought from the believ­ers their lives and their wealth because the Gar­den will be theirs : they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is bind­ing on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. Who ful­fil­leth His covenant bet­ter than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bar­gain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

    SHAKIR : Sure­ly Allah has bought of the believ­ers their per­sons and their prop­er­ty for this, that they shall have the gar­den ; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain ; a promise which is bind­ing on Him in the Tau­rat and the Injeel and the Quran ; and who is more faith­ful to his covenant than Allah ? Rejoice there­fore in the pledge which you have made ; and that is the mighty achievement.

  7. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    Paak­Maw said on 2 Novem­ber 2006:“Folks, kind­ly do not take HeiGou (trans­lat­ed as Black Dog”) as seri­ous­ly as he is long-wind­ed, aim­less and does­nt seem to be able to stick to any point in any dis­cus­sion WHEREVER he goes on the Net.”

    And yet I notice an inabil­i­ty to deal with any­thing I have said much less dis­prove any of it.

    Paak­Maw said on 2 Novem­ber 2006:“For a quick exam­ple, his LAST sen­tence, No one is being killed for their faith. Except non-Mus­lims” is mere­ly try­ing to INSTIGATE and DISTRACT (I.D.).”

    Insti­gate what ? Is it true ? Well yes it is. What is the point of deny­ing it ? Dis­tract ? From what ? This site con­tains a large num­ber of self-pity­ing arti­cles that miss the point — only kafirs are dying for their reli­gion. It goes to the heart of the issue.

  8. PaakMaw Avatar
    PaakMaw

    Folks, kind­ly do not take HeiGou (trans­lat­ed as Black Dog”) as seri­ous­ly as he is long-wind­ed, aim­less and does­nt seem to be able to stick to any point in any dis­cus­sion WHEREVER he goes on the Net.

    (refer to Nafees’ com­ment on HeiGou’s behav­iour and *#%#@# words in oth­er sites in On revis­ing bigotry”)

    For a quick exam­ple, his LAST sen­tence, No one is being killed for their faith. Except non-Mus­lims” is mere­ly try­ing to INSTIGATE and DISTRACT (I.D.).

    Do not even hon­our his inten­tions by giv­ing a response to the LAST or any oth­er sen­tence. Such state­ments reveal his true inten­tions (I.D.) in par­tic­i­pat­ing in these discussions.

    The Prophet, on the Israq Mi’raj, encoun­tered voic­es call­ing out to him on both sides and right­ful­ly ignored it, there­in, a guide for us to do the same, to remain undis­tract­ed, in all our focus and efforts.

    Regards, Paak­Maw (“White Cat”)

  9. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    Ahmad said on 17 Octo­ber 2006:“HeiGou did not know a lot of things about Islam. He just pick and choose and con­clude about Islam. Richard is right he is point scor­ing. He already had this pre­con­cieved idea about Mus­lims are ter­ror­ist because Islam teach them to ter­rorise and kills the infidels.”

    You can triv­ial­ly prove me wrong then. Where do I do any of this point scor­ing ? It has been a long and slow process for me to realise that those Mus­lims who defend ter­ror­ism are prob­a­bly not in the minor­i­ty and actu­al­ly have pret­ty good argu­ments. Cer­tain­ly no one has ever been able to explain to me why Sheik Qaradawi is wrong when he sup­port sui­cide bombing.

    Ahmad said on 17 Octo­ber 2006:“He want­ed to be rec­og­nized as a win­ner of a debate. If he choose to be rec­og­nized as such let him be.”

    Self-evi­dent­ly on a Mus­lim-run site no kafir will ever win” a debate even if we could agree what that meant.

    Ahmad said on 17 Octo­ber 2006:“9/11 was an unfor­tu­nate inci­dent not only the Amer­i­cans, the non-mus­lim but to all the Mus­lims all over the world. This is a real test time by Allah to all of us. Only those with a strongth faith in Allah and Muham­mad (saw) shall pass the test. Rasul­lal­lah (saw) had been test­ed worst than this for did all oth­er Prophets of Allah and some them were killed, just because they called all human beings to have a faith in Allah.”

    Some­how I think it was a lit­tle more unfor­tu­nate for non-Mus­lims than for Mus­lims. But of course some peo­ple only care about their own and not human­i­ty at large.

    No one is being killed for their faith. Except non-Muslims.

  10. Ahmad Avatar
    Ahmad

    To me HeiGou did not know a lot of things about Islam. He just pick and choose and con­clude about Islam. Richard is right he is point scor­ing. He already had this pre­con­cieved idea about Mus­lims are ter­ror­ist because Islam teach them to ter­rorise and kills the infidels.

    He want­ed to be rec­og­nized as a win­ner of a debate. If he choose to be rec­og­nized as such let him be. This is type of per­son writ­ten in the The Holy ALQURAN :

    AlBaqarah 10 :
    In their hearts is a dis­ease ; and Allah has increased their dis­ease : and griev­ous is the penal­ty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
    AlBaqarah 11
    When it is said to them : Make not mis­chief on the earth,” they say : Why, we only want to make peace!”
    AlBaqarah 12
    Of a sure­ty, they are the ones who make mis­chief, but they realise (it) not.
    AlBaqarah 13
    When it is said to them : Believe as the oth­ers believe,” they say : Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a sure­ty they are the fools, but they do not know.

    And many more vers­es that described the non believ­ers of this type.

    In my opin­ion from all his com­ments, I can read that he is actu­al­ly seek­ing the truth but he just could find as yet as Allah has not giv­en him hiday­at (light), just as yet. I am sure if he keep search­ing one of these days he shall find.

    This HeiGou guy is found every­where in the web, espe­cial­ly Islam­ic relat­ed forums and blogs. He com­ments are all the same and it could be the same guy or girl.

    Not to wor­ry so much as we Mus­lims our mis­sion is to inform and Allah The Almighty that change a person.

    AlBaqarah 272
    It is not required of thee (O Mes­sen­ger), to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleaseth. What­ev­er of good ye give ben­e­fits your own souls, and ye shall only do so seek­ing the Face” of Allah. What­ev­er good ye give, shall be ren­dered back to you, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

    We have made clear none of our Islam­ic teach­ing that tought us to be voilence or con­duct any of the ter­ror­ist act. We shall see many of these type againts Islam not because they are not clever but they are influ­enced so much by the vengeance feel­ing espe­cial­ly of 911 incident.

    911 was an unfor­tu­nate inci­dent not only the Amer­i­cans, the non-mus­lim but to all the Mus­lims all over the world. This is a real test time by Allah to all of us. Only those with a strongth faith in Allah and Muham­mad (saw) shall pass the test. Rasul­lal­lah (saw) had been test­ed worst than this for did all oth­er Prophets of Allah and some them were killed, just because they called all human beings to have a faith in Allah.

    Allah knows best.

  11. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    P.S. I know I said good­bye, but my wife has insist­ed that I should add a thought from her, which I believe is well worth your understanding.

    If any reli­gion autho­rizes, through the mouth of its prophets, priests, inter­preters, jurists, or even the voice of God’ him/​her/​itself, any action, emo­tion or thought that is phys­i­cal­ly or men­tal­ly vio­lent to anoth­er human being, then that reli­gion is to be reject­ed as per­vert­ed. In Eng­lish God’ is derived from good’. We all (and this includes YOU) know this at the most fun­da­men­tal level.

    So thats it.

    There’s no more.

  12. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    Well, I assume from the con­tin­u­ing tone of this debate that nobody is par­tic­u­lar­ly inter­est­ed in any­thing except point scor­ing. So let me by way of farewell do a lit­tle of that too.

    Yes HeiGou I can tell from your posts that you are nei­ther Chris­t­ian nor Mus­lim. And yes, you do get car­ried away with long posts as does every­body — and you seem to be an enthu­si­as­tic point scorer.

    And there are actu­al­ly a lot of mis­guid­ed so-called Chris­t­ian preach­ers, rev­e­la­tion­ers, cre­ation­ists etc who do a lot of harm in the world. I’ve heard that Ugan­da, for exam­ple, despite recent tragedies, still has a load of mis­sions, fund­ed from the USA, preach­ing that the end of the world is at hand to such an extent that peo­ple aren’t even both­er­ing to till their fields. Real sci­ence is being ignored for the sake of cre­ation­ism, and IMHO the Chris­t­ian right is prob­a­bly behind what I believe is a dis­cernible lack of even-hand­ed­ness in the USA’s atti­tude to mid­dle east­ern prob­lems. Maybe they aren’t respect­ed by you, but they seem to be respect­ed by G W Bush, and many of these preach­ers have their own TV stations.

    And the pope has­n’t helped, I would agree, with his lat­est remarks. And yes I have read the full con­text and I still think it was an unhelp­ful thing to say, and prob­a­bly said quite delib­er­ate­ly, though I would agree that the response was inter­est­ing. It was in effect say­ing Mus­lims are agres­sive” to which the response from some was Kill the bas­tard”, which he must have thought proved his point rather neatly.

    And to you com­mit­ted Mus­lims, with­out wish­ing to offend you, is it not pos­si­ble that God actu­al­ly wants every­body to be nice to each oth­er ? Did­n’t your moth­er teach you that two wrongs don’t make a right ? And maybe some of your spir­i­tu­al lead­ers aren’t very wise or spir­i­tu­al either ?

    So now I am going to leave you guys to your argu­ment. Would­n’t it be nice if each of us tried sim­ply to live as an altru­is­tic human being, not being unpleas­ant to each oth­er, and try­ing to resist vengeance ?

    Have fun.

    bye.

  13. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“THE POPE’S RECENT SPEECH COULD BE HARDLY CONSIDERED ASDEBATE BUTDECLERATION OF PUBLIC INSULT TO ISLAM ? A DEBATE HAS TO BE EXCHANGE OF OPINION BETWEEN 2 INDIVIDUALS, DID THAT HAPPEN ? IT DIDN’T HMMM, MAYBE IT DID HAPPEN IN HEIGOU’S DELUSION CONSIOUSNESS, WHERE VISUAL AND AUDITORY HALLUCINATIONS IS POSSIBLE.”

    Is that a ques­tion or a state­ment ? The Pope’s com­ments were part of a debate with stu­dents about the role of rea­son and nat­ur­al law in the­ol­o­gy. He was not try­ing to have a debate with the Mus­lim world and cer­tain­ly he was not try­ing to insult Islam. Noth­ing he said was untrue any­way although I can see why the Emper­or that he quot­ed might have upset Muslims.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“ANYWAY LETS GO ON, I WONDER WHY DID THIS PSYCHO MENTION HONOR KILLINGS ALL OFSUDDEN. IT MUST BE THAT HE OR SHE IS TRYING TO CONNECT THIS BARBARIC ACT TO ISLAM.”

    Actu­al­ly I cite them as an exam­ple of some­thing that a reli­gion per­mits even though it for­mal­ly con­demns them. They are a good example.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“TO ALL MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS HONOR KILLING IS SOMETHING THAT ISLAM AND ITS PROPHET HAS CONDEMN. FOR MURDER REGARDLESS OF SEX OF THE VICTIM OR MURDERER OR THE OBJECTIVE BEHIND IT ITS SOMETHING NOT TAKEN LIGHTLY IN ISLAM ESPECIALLY BETWEEN MUSLIMS.”

    And yet that is not my point. I said that Islam con­demns them. I also said that Islam­ic law allows them — to whom does the killer pay the diya if he was sent by his father to mur­der his sister ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“ANY ACT OF MURDER EVEN TOWOMEN WHO HAS COMMITED ZINA OR ADULTERY BY FAMILY MEMBERS IS WRONG, FOR ACT OF CONVICTING HER IS TO BE DONE BY THE SHARIAH COURT AND NO OTHER, AND SHE MUST BE GIVENFAIR TRAIL WITH PROPER EVIDENCE BEFORE ANY FINAL JUDGEMENT OR SENTENCE GIVEN.”

    Where does it say a Sharia court needs to give a sen­tence ? Are we all respon­si­ble for for­bid­ding the evil and encour­ag­ing the good ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“FOR THE ACT OF HONOUR KILLINGS BY MALE FAMILY MEMBERS PUTS THEM TO THE CATOGERYLIFE FORLIFE AND THEREFORE THERE IS POSSIBILITY OF THEM IN FACING THE DEATH PENALTY TOO​.AS WE CAN SEE HONOUR KILLINGS ISPRACTISE THAT PREDATES ISLAM AND ISLAM STRICLY FORBIDS EXECUTION WITHOUT LEGAL JUSTIFICATION.”

    The pos­si­bil­i­ty. I agree. But who decides if the death sen­tence is passed or if the mur­der can pay a diya ? The Wali right ? Who is the dead girl’s wali ? It does pre­date Islam, but so what ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“The Ara­bic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is idribuhun­na”, which is derived from dara­ba” which means beat”. The thing with all of the Ara­bic words that are derived from the word dara­ba” is that they don’t nec­es­sar­i­ly mean hit”. The word idribuhun­na” for instance, could very well mean to leave” them. It is exact­ly like telling some­one to beat it” or drop it” in English.”

    This is a mas­sive diver­sion into some­thing I did not say, but it is worth notic­ing that the Quran almost always uses dara­ba” to mean beat as in hit. And every­one used to think it did here too.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“FUTHERMORE, IF HONOR KILLINGS IS INDEED DUE TO ISLAM WHY IS SUCH CULTURE NOT RAMPANT IN EASTERN MUSLIM COUNTRIES LIKE MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA ( LARGEST ISLAMIC POPULATION ), THIS FUTHER STRENGHTEN THE THEORY THAT HONOR KILLINGS IS CULTURAL MOTIVATED AND NOT RELIGION.”

    Malaysia and Indone­sia are new­ly con­vert­ed regions. They have a lot of non-Mus­lim prac­tices. Women do not wear the bur­ka. Some Indone­sians are matri­lin­eal. Islam­ic knowl­edge is poor. Like some Africans they do not prac­tice all Mus­lim prac­tices. How­ev­er to become a good Mus­lim means becom­ing less Malay and more Arab. They grad­u­al­ly take Arab names, eat Arab food, dress in Arab cloth­ing as they become bet­ter Mus­lims. No doubt they will also adopt two cus­toms typ­i­cal of the Mus­lim world — trib­al­ism (Malaysia and Indone­sia don’t do tribes much but near­ly all the cen­tral Mus­lim lands do even where there were no tribes before Islam) and hon­or killings. It is not that Islam com­mands these cus­toms and in fact specif­i­cal­ly con­demns both, but Islam com­mands oth­er things which seem to cause them — why else would Arabs and Turks and so on live in tribes and kill their women ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_​be_​upon_​him) for prayer, a man attacked her and over­pow­ered (raped) her. She shout­ed and he went off, and when a man came by, she said : That (man) did such and such to me. And when a com­pa­ny of the Emi­grants came by, she said : That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had inter­course with her and brought him to her.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“She said : Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apos­tle of Allah (peace_​be_​upon_​him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sen­tence, the man who (actu­al­ly) had assault­ed her stood up and said : Apos­tle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“He (the Prophet) said to the woman : Go away, for Allah has for­giv­en you. And about the man who had inter­course with her, he said : Stone him to death.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“He also said : He has repent­ed to such an extent that if the peo­ple of Med­i­na had repent­ed sim­i­lar­ly, it would have been accept­ed from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Num­ber 4366)””

    So the women who cried rape was on tri­al — why else would Muhammed have said Go away for Allah has for­giv­en you”. For­giv­en what ? Why could­n’t she go away before ? She was obvi­ous­ly in jail and on tri­al for rape until the cul­prit confessed.

    al-zar­qawi said on 13 Octo­ber 2006:“HOWEVER, A WORD OF CAUTION , IN ISLAMCASE MUST BE CONSIDEREDTRUE RAPE BEFORE SENTENCE IS BEING PASSED ON, FOR IF THERE IS ANY EVIDENCE THAT IS POINTING TO CONSENTED SEX BY THE WOMEN THEN BOTH SHALL BE PUNISHED ESPEACIALLY IN ACQUITANCE (DATE) RAPE.”

    Any evi­dence ? Can­ny Ong was held by a rapist. Two police­men checked their ID cards as they sat in a car togeth­er. It appears she was threat­ened and did not cry out. Would that con­sti­tute evi­dence point­ing to con­sen­tu­al sex­u­al giv­en she did not do every­thing in her pow­er to escape even though she might have died ? So what you are say­ing is that if Sharia exist­ed in Malaysia, her killer would be flogged for pre­mar­i­tal sex but not exe­cut­ed for rape ?

  14. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“IF THAT IS THE CASE, WHY DID GEORGE BUSH CALL THE WAR ON TERORISM ASCRUSADE ? AND ITALIAN PM SILVIO BERLUSCONI CALLED ISLAMRELIGION INFERIOR TO WESTERN CIVILISATION POST SEPT 11?”

    Because Cru­sade” in Eng­lish means exact­ly the same as Jihad”. It does not mean a war on Mus­lims. Berlus­coni prob­a­bly thinks that Islam is infe­ri­or to West­ern civil­i­sa­tion. All evi­dence seems to sug­gest so. They are per­fect­ly rea­son­able com­ments and have noth­ing to do what any­thing you have claimed recently.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ON THE CONTRARY YOU ALSO HAVE PROVE MY POINT OFTYPICAL WESTERN ISLAMOPHOBE WHO BLAMES ISLAM AND ALL MUSLIMS FOR ACTIONS BY SOME EXTREME MUSLIMS. THEREFORE ANTI-ISLAMIC COMMENTS BY WESTERN LEADERS IS NOTLIE ! WHENMEAN ISLAM IS PUT ON TRIAL IS DOES NOT ONLY MEAN THE WESTERN GOVERMENT, IT MEANT THE WESTERN SOCIETY ON THE WHOLE, THERE ARE SO MANY ANTI-ISLAMIC WEBSITES AND PROGRAMMES THAT ATTACK MUSLIMS POST-SEPT 11, CLAMING ISLAM INSPIRE TERRORISM AND SEPT 11.”

    I am an Islamo-real­ist. If Islam inspires OBL to kill I don’t think it is pho­bic to point out that fact. And it does. There are still no anti-Islam­ic com­ments from peo­ple like Bush and Blair. They make it clear this is not a war on Islam. What I said changes noth­ing. West­ern soci­ety as a whole ? Wow. So web­sites make Bush wage a war on Islam does it ? You’re reach­ing. There are web­sites because peo­ple are hor­ri­fied by what they have dis­cov­ered about Islam. Stop Mus­lims killing peo­ple and the web­sites will go away. No ter­ror­ism, no fear of terrorism.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“KARADZIC IS BOTHCHRISTIAN AND SERBIAN NATIONALIST, WHILE THE WEST ON PAPER REJECTS AND CONDEMNS THE GENOCIDE LITTLE WAS DONE TO ACTUALLY STOP IT, NO MILITARY ACTION WAS TAKEN UPON SERBIA WHO MILITARILY SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE NOT EVENSACTION BY UN. UNTIL KARADZIC HAS BEEN PUTBULLET IN HIS HEAD LIKE DR.AZHARI OR BEING CAPTURED ALIVE YOUR CLAIM OF WESTERN AUTHORITIES OF HUNTING HIM IS NOTHING MORE BUT AN ACT OF HIPPOCRACY. AT LEAST MUSLIMS HAS GUNNED DOWN TERRORIST WHO ARE MUSLIMSAM YET TO SEE THE SAME TO BE DONE BY THE WEST.”

    He is a Ser­bian nation­al­ist, not a Chris­t­ian. And you may have noticed that the West went to war with Ser­bia to save Koso­vo. They also armed and fund­ed the Bosni­ans and Croats to fight the Serbs so you are wrong, again, on every issue. Umm, I think you will find there were sanc­tions against Ser­bia in May 1992. But the fact that your Mus­lim and African broth­ers (who are a major­i­ty of the UN) did not sup­port them ear­li­er is not the West­’s fault. Ser­bia is hid­ing him. There are still miss­ing War Crim­i­nals from WW2 after all but that does­n’t mean the West isn’t look­ing for them. Mus­lims nev­er hunt down ter­ror­ists who only kill non-Mus­lims. Not one. Only those who kill their own. Nor Top was dumb enough to kill Mus­lim Indonesians.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“DO ANYONE KNOW WHERE OSAMA ACTUALLY IS ? ARE YOU SAYING THE MAIN REASON HIS STILL AT LARGE BECAUSE MUSLIMS GOVERMENT ESPEACIALLY PAKISTAN ARE HELPING HIM TO HIDE ? HE ISTERRORIST FOR GODSAKE AND KNOWS HOW TO HIDE AND MOVE BETWEEN THE BORDER OF PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN WHOSE MOUNTAIN AND CAVE TERRAIN MAKES HIM AND REMAINING AL-QAEDA UNIT DIFFICULT TO DETECT.”

    I think we all know he is in Waziris­tan. And yes I am say­ing that the Pak­ista­nis, espe­cial­ly the Waziris, are pro­tect­ing him includ­ing the ISI.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ONE MORE THING ON THE WAR ON TERROR, DID EVER THE US CONSULTED THE OIC ON HOW TO BATTLE TERRORISM ? NO ! MUSLIM NATION OPINION WERE NEVER WELCOME INSTEAD THE US MADEFAMOUS CLAIM EITHER YOU WITH US OR AGAINST US AND STARTED DRAFTINGONE SIDED WAR PLAN AND INVADING AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.”

    They did con­sult the OIC but they refused and still refuse to help. Mus­lims have been wel­come — the US is tol­er­at­ing Pak­istan still as it plays both sides. It is an ally of Egypt and Sau­di Ara­bia. It even wel­comed sup­port from Syr­ia. Again you are sim­ply wrong.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“NOAM NOT IN LEAVING INCAVE AND YES THERE ARE WESTERN SOCIETY WHO ARE SENSIBLE (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU )”

    So you were wrong or you lied. Fine.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THERE ARE MANY MORE WHO ALSO SUPPORT PRESIDENT’S BUSH ACT OF WAR THATS WHY HE WAS ELECTED FOR THE 2ND TIME. THIS SHOWS MANY OF THE WEST STILL SUPPORT THIS UNJUST WAR.”

    Sure a lot of peo­ple sup­port him. So what ? The war is not unjust.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THATS BECAUSE THE ALLIES CLAIM THAT THEY ARE LIBERATING IRAQ, BUT IN REALITY THEY ARE JUST REPLACING SADDAM’S CRUEL REGIME WHICH MAKE THEM HIPPOCRATES. CAN YOU PLS TELL ME WHAT ARE THE TOTURES THAT YOU CLAIM HAPPENING IN IRAN, SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT AND IRAN ? THEN ALL OFSUDDEM WHY ARE YOU COMPARING AMERICAN TORTURE TO MORROCAN (WHICH NON OF THE EXAMPLES OF THE ABOVE)? WHATS WRONG TOO MUCH ANTI ISLAM SENTIMENT IN YOUR BRAIN ? I SEE AN ISLAMOPHOBE SEIZURE GOING HERE​.SO ARE YOU SAYING YOU SUPPORT THE TORTURE IN ABU GHARIB ?”

    Well no. They would have replaced Sad­dam with democ­ra­cy if the Iraqis had want­ed it. They pre­fer to kill each oth­er. They could have been Japan or Ger­many. They have cho­sen to be Soma­lia or North Korea. You can triv­ial­ly find accounts from your Mus­lim broth­ers about the pris­ons of Sau­di Ara­bia. The inter­net is full of such accounts. The Amer­i­cans hand­ed AG over to the Iraqis recent­ly and the Iraqi pris­on­ers begged the Amer­i­cans not to go and leave them to their own fel­low Iraqis. I am not doing it all of a sud­den. I have con­sis­tent­ly opposed all tor­ture in the Mid­dle East. It only looks sud­den to you because you do not care what Mus­lims do to each oth­er — only what the West does. You are hap­py with Mus­lims tor­tur­ing each oth­er. Why ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“TILL THE DAY PFC STEVE GREEN IS SENTENCE FOR EXECUTION PLS DON’T MAKE ANY CLAIMS OF AMERICAN JUSTICE

    At least he is on tri­al. When has a Mus­lim sol­dier ever gone on tri­al for killing a non-Mus­lim in a Mus­lim country ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ANYWAY THE AMERICAN MARINE MEDIC WHO KILLED AN INNOCENT IRAQI WAS ONLY SENTENCE TO 10 YEARS IN PRISON.”

    He tes­ti­fied and struck a plea bargain.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“IN MALAYSIA, A MUSLIM MAN AHMAD NAJIP, HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO THE GALLOWS FOR RAPING AND KILLING CANNY ONGNON MUSLIM WOMEN.DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION (YOU CAN CHECK IN THE NET.) CAN YOU PLZ POINT TO ME ON YOUR SOURCES WHICH INFORMS ON RAPE DONE BY EGYPTIAN AND SYRIAN ARMY ?”

    Sen­tenced to death. Not exe­cut­ed. And he had to try to get exe­cut­ed by refus­ing to defend him­self at all. Let’s see if he is actu­al­ly killed. I can triv­ial­ly point to the behav­ior of the Egypt­ian Army in Yemen and go talk to some Lebanese.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THE ACT OF KILLING INNOCENT MUSLIM AND NON-MUSLIM CIVILIANS BY MUSLIMS AND NON MUSLIMS IS AN ACT MANY MUSLIMS HAVE CONDEMN AND THERE ARE MANY MUSLIMS SCHOLARS WHO SUPPORT THIS.”

    The key word there is inno­cent” and with Mus­lims it usu­al­ly turns out no one is inno­cent. When did any Mus­lims ever con­demn ter­ror­ism — and hence the mur­der of inno­cents — before Amer­i­ca made them after 9 – 11 ? When did they do it before they were attacked by ter­ror­ists them­selves ? Nowhere ? Sheik Qaradawi says that sui­cide bomb­ings in Pales­tine are fard. He does not con­demn the mur­der of innocents.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“AND MANY MUSLIM LEADERS HAVE ALSO CONDEMN THE ACT TERRORISM, THE LATE ARAFAT CONDEMN AND SHOWED EMPATHY FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ON THE EVE SEPI 11 ITSELF AND DON’T FORGET THERE WERE MUSLIMS TOO WHO RALLIED IN THE PROTEST AGAINST SEPT 11 IN THE US.”

    Arafat knew he had to pre­tend but his fel­low Pales­tini­ans cel­e­brat­ed in the streets. Which Mus­lims ral­lied in America ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“FUTHERMORE WHICH OPINION POLL ARE YOU REFERING TO GENERALISED THAT MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD SUPPORT ACT OF TERRORISM ? WHICH STUDY ?”

    The Pew Cen­ter does reg­u­lar reports on opin­ion across the world.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“FUTHERMORE MOST ISLAMIC TERROR CELL PRE TO SEPT 11 EXCEPT HAMAS HAS BEEN ALMOST OBLITERATED, COULD THAT HAVE BEEN ACHIVE IF THE MAJORITY MUSLIM LEADERS AND PEOPLE SUPPORT AND EMBRACE TERRRORISM. IF WE DID THE POPE WILL BE DECAPITATED BY NOW .”

    Real­ly ? JI was almost oblit­er­at­ed”? LeT in Pak­si­tan ? I don’t think so. Yes it could because the Mus­lim world is full of dictators.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“IN 1975 EAST TIMORE WAS ABOUT TO BE ANOTHER COMMUNIST COUNTRY THEN INDONESIA BEINGPRO-DEMOCRACY NATION INVADED EAST TIMORE TO PREVENT THE DOMINO EFFECT FROM SPREADING. THE US AND AUSTRALIA BOTH WERE NOT AGAINST THIS IDEA AT THAT PERIOD. FROM BEING PRO-COMMUNIS, EAST TIMOR TURN COATS TO BE NATIONALIST AND STARTED MILITARY GURIELLA STRIKES AGAINST INDONESIAN MILITARY AND NON MILITARY TARGETS.ON THE CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU HAVE MENTION, THE EAST TIMORES DIDN’T GRACEFULLY ACCEPT INDONESIAN PRESENCE BUT ENGAGED IN GURIELLA WARFARE TACTICS SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE PLO AT THAT TIME.”

    I nev­er said they grace­ful­ly accept­ed it. I said they did not behead peo­ple on the inter­net. I said they did not mur­der school girls — unlike your fel­low Malays in Ambon. So what if it was about” to become a Com­mu­nist coun­try. Noth­ing I said was untrue, noth­ing you have said is relevant.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THUS FROM 1975 – 1999 BOTH SIDES COMMIT ATTROCITIES IN ORDER TO WIN THE WAR

    Except the Indone­sians killed a fifth of the pop­u­la­tion. Atroc­i­ties ? What atroc­i­ties did the East Tim­o­rese com­mit ? Name three.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“BUT UNLIKE THE PLO THIER MOVEMENT ARE NOT CONSIDERED TERRORIST BUT FREEDOM FIGHTERS.”

    They did not com­mit ter­ror­ist acts. They did not blow up night clubs. They did not mur­der civil­ians and plen­ty of peo­ple still called them terrorists.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THE CASUALTIES OF TIMORESE FROM DIRECT WAR ATTROCITIES TO COLLATERAL DAMAGE WERE 18,600 WHILENUMBER 84,200 PEOPLE DIED FROM STARVATION AND ILLNESS.”

    Star­va­tion caused by Indone­sia and you are wrong about the fig­ures. About 200,000 East Tim­o­rese died. Vast­ly more suf­fer­ing than any Mus­lims. Did they mur­der any school girls ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“THEN AGAIN 500,00O IRAQI CHILDREN ALSO DIED OF STARVATION DUE TO UN SACTIONS BUT HEIGOU IS GONNA SAY ITS SADDAM FAULT FOR INVADING KUWAIT.”

    Yes and I am going to say it is the fault of the Arab, Mus­lim and African dom­i­nat­ed UN for vot­ing for sanctions.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE SUFFERING OF PALESTINIAN AND IRAQIS ARE BEING FELT BY ALL MUSLIMS

    Sure. Because they do not care about the suf­fer­ing of kafirs in East Tim­or. Mus­lims only care about oth­er Mus­lims — they have ceased to have hearts.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“SADLY SOME OF THEM CHOSE THE WRONG PATH OF TERRORISM TO EXPRESS THEIR REBELLION AGAINST THE ZIONIS AND ALLIES INVASION BY ATTACKING THIER CIVILIANS, THATS WHY YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE OSAMA AMD DR. AZHARI. IM WARNING YOU NOT TO SLYLY TWIST MY STATEMENT HERE, FORAM AGAINST THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE AND IRAQ BY THE WEST, BUT IT DOESN’T MEANSUPPORT AL-QAEDA OR ANY MUSLIM FANATICS AND ALL UNISLAMIC ACTS THAT THEY HAVE COMMITED.”

    And yet you defend them. Either you sup­port ter­ror­ism or you do not. Yet you excuse it. I do not have to twist your words. You con­demn yourself.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ARE SURE WESTERN CHRISTIAN DID NOT OPPRESS MUSLIMS

    Read what I write. I specif­i­cal­ly said they did but now they don’t. No ter­ror­ism when they did. Plen­ty now they don’t.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“WHEN ITALY INVADED LIBYA IN 1911, THE GREAT UMAR MUKHTAR LEDREBELLION AGAINST THE ITALIAN COLONIALS JUST BEFORE THAT ERA.MORE THAN 125,OOO LIBYAN WOMEN, MEN AND CHILDREN WERE PUT TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS AMD 23 FROM THESE PERISH.”

    And your point is what exactly ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ONE MORE THING ZARQAWI HAPPENS TO BE MY MIDDLE NAME GIVEN BY MY PARENTS, SO DON’T TRY ANYTHING PERSONAL HERE AND BACK OFF.”

    But you choose to use it. There­fore you have no right to claim you con­demn ter­ror­ism when you plain­ly do not.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“IF YOU EAST TIMORESE GURIELLA MOVEMENT TO BE CIVILISED THEN SO ARE THE INSURGENTS IN IRAQ AND ISRAEL.”

    The East Tim­o­rese nev­er behead­ed any­one and put the video on the inter­net. They did not behead school girls either. They may have been Com­mu­nists but they were not Muslims.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“YOU SEE HEIGOU THERE ARE MUSLIMS OUT THERE WITH THE NAME OF ZARQAWI NOT ONLY ABU MUSAB AL-ZARQAWI WHO IS RECENTLY KILLED BY THE ALLIES. SO YOUR ARE SAYING EVERYONE WITH THE NAME ZARQAWI SHOULD BE TREATED LIKETERRORIST ? YOU ARE INDEED AN ISLAMAPHOBE BY DRAWING SUCH BASELESS CONCLUSION AS THIS.”

    Any­one who choos­es to use that name, and I do not accept that it is a prop­er Mus­lim name at all, is clear­ly sym­pa­this­ing with the orig­i­nal. You have cho­sen it. We all know what you mean.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“AND YOU ARE SIMPLY TWISTING THE EVIDENCE, YESRAID IS CONDUCTED BY NATO THEY GOT HIS SON BUT REALEASED HIM 10 DAYS LATER AND PRESSURE HIS FAMILY BUT NATO TOOK 6 YEARS TO ORGANIZEPATHETIC ATTEMP THAT MEANT TO FAIL, IT TOOK THE ALLIES LESS THAN 3 MONTHS TO INVADE AFGHANISTAN AND DESTROY ALQAEDA AND THE TALIBAN.”

    I am twist­ing noth­ing. That they got his son proved how close they were. But his son and his wife did not kill any­one and so had to be let go. Meant to fail ? You have no evi­dence of that. It took no time to bomb Ser­bia into sur­ren­der either but they have not man­aged to catch OBL. Bomb­ing is easy. Arrest­ing peo­ple is not. They can­not do it in Afghanistan or Serbia.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“SEE THE DIFFRENCE ON SWIFTNESS OF ACTION. AMBON WASRELIGIOUS RIOT NOT CAUSED BY THE INDONESIAN GOVERMENT BUT BY CHRISTIAN TERRORIST (RECENTLY EXECUTED) WHO STARED THE RIOT BY KILLING MUSLIMS AND BURNING THE AMBON MOSQUE, CHRISTIAN ALL OVER THE WORLD KEPT QUIET INITIALLY WHEN THE RIOT STARTED BECAUSE MORE MUSLIMS WERE BEING KILLED AND DRIVEN OFF THIER HOMES, ONLY WHEN SWIFT MUSLIM RETIALION OCCURED, AND THE CHRISTIAN TERRORIST BEING COUNTER MASSACRED IT BECAMECHRISTIAN CRISIS.”

    It was entire­ly caused by Mus­lim rad­i­cals fed a diet of hate by the Indone­sian gov­ern­ment. Those poor men died because they defend­ed them­selves from Jiha­di ter­ror­ists. The vio­lence was start­ed by Mus­lims who attacked Chris­tians. The world did not care because it was a prob­lem for Indone­sians to sort out. The world still does not care.

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“WHAT ABOUT THE MASSACRE DONE BY CHRISTIAN DAYAK’S OF KALIMANTAN WHO DECAPITATED THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM MADURANESE, WHY DIDN’T YOU MENTION THIS ? WHY, YOU DIDN’T THINK CHRISTIAN’S COULD CUT OFF HEADS OF LITTLE CHILDREN ?”

    Who said they were Dayaks ? Again the indige­nous peo­ples defend them­selves against Mus­lim oppres­sion. Good for them. What chil­dren were decap­i­tat­ed by these pagan Dayaks ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 11 Octo­ber 2006:“ONLYPSYCHOTIC PERSON LIKE YOU WILL SAY THE CRUSADES ARE AN ACT OF SELF DEFENCE, IN 1099 CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS AFTER TAKING JERUSALEM MASSACRED ALL MUSLIM AND JEWISH POPULATION INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO ARE NON-COMBATANTS

    Indeed they did. Jerusalem the Chris­t­ian city which the Mus­lims invad­ed and took from them. Islam came from Ara­bia, not Pales­tine. It was Roman. It was self defence to try and lib­er­ate it.

  15. al-zarqawi Avatar
    al-zarqawi

    In the name of Allah, most Gra­cious, most merciful.

    heigou’s qoute,

    Richard said on 10 Octo­ber 2006:”In the mean­time would some­body, with­out quot­ing out of con­text, be inter­est­ed in a sim­ply the­o­log­i­cal debate on the essen­tial dif­fer­ences in religion?”

    Well the Pope tried that didn’t he ? At some point peo­ple do things because they think their reli­gion either tells them to or at least allows it. The reli­gion may not even tell them to. It may even be opposed to it, but there is usu­al­ly a jus­ti­fi­ca­tion in there some­where. Take hon­or killings for instance. It is nev­er enough to dis­cuss the theology.

    THE POPE’S RECENT SPEECH COULD BE HARDLY CONSIDERED ASDEBATE BUTDECLERATION OF PUBLIC INSULT TO ISLAM ? A DEBATE HAS TO BE EXCHANGE OF OPINION BETWEEN 2 INDIVIDUALS, DID THAT HAPPEN ? IT DIDN’T HMMM, MAYBE IT DID HAPPEN IN HEIGOU’S DELUSION CONSIOUSNESS, WHERE VISUAL AND AUDITORY HALLUCINATIONS IS POSSIBLE.

    ANYWAY LETS GO ON, I WONDER WHY DID THIS PSYCHO MENTION HONOR KILLINGS ALL OFSUDDEN. IT MUST BE THAT HE OR SHE IS TRYING TO CONNECT THIS BARBARIC ACT TO ISLAM.

    1. DEFINATION OF HONOR KILLINGS BY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
    Hon­or crimes are acts of vio­lence, usu­al­ly mur­der, com­mit­ted by male fam­i­ly mem­bers against female fam­i­ly mem­bers, who are per­ceived to have brought dis­hon­or upon the fam­i­ly. A woman can be tar­get­ed by (indi­vid­u­als with­in) her fam­i­ly for a vari­ety of rea­sons, includ­ing : refus­ing to enter into an arranged mar­riage, being the vic­tim of a sex­u­al assault, seek­ing a divorce — even from an abu­sive hus­band — or (alleged­ly) com­mit­ting adul­tery. The mere per­cep­tion that a woman has behaved in a spe­cif­ic way to dis­hon­or” her fam­i­ly, is suf­fi­cient to trig­ger an attack. [1]

    TO ALL MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS HONOR KILLING IS SOMETHING THAT ISLAM AND ITS PROPHET HAS CONDEMN. FOR MURDER REGARDLESS OF SEX OF THE VICTIM OR MURDERER OR THE OBJECTIVE BEHIND IT ITS SOMETHING NOT TAKEN LIGHTLY IN ISLAM ESPECIALLY BETWEEN MUSLIMS.

    THIS CAN BE PROVEN FROM THE AL-QURAN AND HADIS :

    Whoso slayeth a believ­er of set pur­pose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and pre­pared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

    ANY ACT OF MURDER EVEN TOWOMEN WHO HAS COMMITED ZINA OR ADULTERY BY FAMILY MEMBERS IS WRONG, FOR ACT OF CONVICTING HER IS TO BE DONE BY THE SHARIAH COURT AND NO OTHER, AND SHE MUST BE GIVENFAIR TRAIL WITH PROPER EVIDENCE BEFORE ANY FINAL JUDGEMENT OR SENTENCE GIVEN.

    The blood of a Mus­lim may not be legal­ly spilt oth­er than in one of three [instances]: the mar­ried per­son who com­mits adul­tery ; a life for a life ; and one who for­sakes his reli­gion and aban­dons the com­mu­ni­ty.” (Report­ed by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

    THIS HADIS NOTES THAT IFMUSLIM REGARGLESSMAN OR WOMEN IS FOUND COMMITING ADULTERY AFTER MARRIAGE IF RIGHTFULLY CONVICTED IS TO BE SENTENCE TO DEATH BY THE AUTHORITIES NOT FAMILY MEMBERS, FOR THE ACT OF HONOUR KILLINGS BY MALE FAMILY MEMBERS PUTS THEM TO THE CATOGERYLIFE FORLIFE AND THEREFORE THERE IS POSSIBILITY OF THEM IN FACING THE DEATH PENALTY TOO​.AS WE CAN SEE HONOUR KILLINGS ISPRACTISE THAT PREDATES ISLAM AND ISLAM STRICLY FORBIDS EXECUTION WITHOUT LEGAL JUSTIFICATION.

    HOWEVER, HEIGOU IS GONNA RESPOND BY SAYING MUSLIM COUNTRIES DO NOT PUNISH THE PERPETRATORS OR THEY ESCAPED WITH LIGHT SENTENCE.

    THAT IS BECAUSE THE ACT OF HONOR KILLINGS IS STRONG CULTURAL HERITAGE (NOT RELIGIOUS) IN SOME MUSLIM COUNTRIES. MOST OF THE CASES ARE HAPPENING IN REMOTES AREA AND MOST OF THE TIME IT WAS NOT REPORTED.
    CERTAIN BIAS LAWS PROTECTING THE PERPETRATORS OF HONOUR KILLING ARE DRAFTED DUE TO CULTURAL AND POLITICAL INFLUNCE RATHER THAN RELIGION. ALTHOUGH WE CAN SEE STEPS BEING TAKEN TO COMBAT THIS, BUT IN MY OPINION MORE AGGRESIVE STEPS ESPECIALLY BY SHARIA AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES OF AFFECTED MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST BE CARRY OUT BY SENTENCING THE PERPETRATORS TO LONGER PRISON SENTENCE, CANING OR EVEN DEATH SENTENCE.

    SECONDLY, SOME WOULD SAY THE DEATH SENTENCE OF THE SHARIAH TO THOSE WHO COMMIT ADULTERY IS WHAT BASICLY INSPIRED MANY MUSLIM MEN TO TAKE THEIR OWN ACTION. WE CAN SEE THIS FROM HEIGOU’S STATEMENT

    At some point peo­ple do things because they think their reli­gion either tells them to or at least allows it. The reli­gion may not even tell them to. It may even be opposed to it, but there is usu­al­ly a jus­ti­fi­ca­tion in there somewhere.

    THIS PSYCHOTIC ANAK HARAM IS TRYING TO INDICATE THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE QURAN AND HADIS THATS ORDERS SUCH ACTS. THE ANSWER IS NO AS HONOUR KILLINGS ISJAHILIYAH ACTS THAT PREDATES ISLAM, HOWEVER THERE ARE SOME ANTI-ISLAMIC INFEDELS WHO ARE THE SAME SPECIES AS HEIGOU THAT HAS PURPOSELY MISINTERPRATE QURANIC STATEMENTS AND HADIS, IN WHICH THEY WILL CLAIM ALTHOUGH CALL FOR HONOUR KILLINGS ARE NOT DIRECTLY FOUND IN ISLAMIC DOCTRINES, BUT ISLAM INDIRECTLY DISCRIMINATES WOMEN AND THAT LEAD TO VIOLENTS ACTION AGAINST THEM. ONE OF THE MOST COMMON FIRMAN THAT WAS MISINTERPRATED IS
    THE VERSE 4:34 WHICH IS :-

    Men are the pro­tec­tors and main­tain­ers of women, because Allah has giv­en the one more (strength) than the oth­er, and because they sup­port them from their means. There­fore the right­eous women are devout­ly obe­di­ent, and guard in (the hus­band’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear dis­loy­al­ty and ill-con­duct, admon­ish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (light­ly); but if they return to obe­di­ence, seek not against them Means (of annoy­ance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    THE EXPLANATION ARE AS FOLLOWS :-

    The Ara­bic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is idribuhun­na”, which is derived from dara­ba” which means beat”. The thing with all of the Ara­bic words that are derived from the word dara­ba” is that they don’t nec­es­sar­i­ly mean hit”. The word idribuhun­na” for instance, could very well mean to leave” them. It is exact­ly like telling some­one to beat it” or drop it” in English.

    Allah Almighty used the word dara­ba” in Noble Verse 14:24 Seest thou not how Allah sets (dara­ba) forth a para­ble ? — A good­ly Word Like a good­ly tree, Whose root is firm­ly fixed, And its branch­es (reach) To the heav­ens”. dara­ba” here meant give an exam­ple”. If I say in Ara­bic dara­ba laka math­al”, it means give you an example”.

    Allah Almighty also used the word darab­tum”, which is derived from the word dara­ba” in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to go abroad” in the sake of Allah Almighty :

    O ye who believe ! When ye go abroad (darab­tum) In the cause of Allah, Inves­ti­gate care­ful­ly, And say not to any­one Who offers you a salu­ta­tion : Thou art none of a Believ­er!’ Cov­et­ing the per­ish­able good Of this life : with Allah Are prof­its and spoils abun­dant. Even thus were ye your­selves Before, till Allah con­ferred On you His favours : there­fore Care­ful­ly inves­ti­gate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)”

    So dara­ba” lit­er­al­ly means beat”, or go abroad”, or give” but not in the sense to give some­thing by hand, but rather to give or pro­vide an example.

    Impor­tant Note : Notice how Allah Almighty in Noble Chap­ter (Surah) 4 He used dara­ba (4:34” and darab­tum (4:94)”, which are both derived from the same root. He used both words in the same Chap­ter, which tells me that dara­ba” in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave, since that’s what its derived word meant in Noble Verse 4:94. The next sec­tion below will fur­ther prove my point.

    I am sure there are more Noble Vers­es that used words derived from dara­ba” in the Noble Quran, but these are the only ones I know of so far. In the case of Noble Verse 4:34 where Allah Almighty seems to allow men to hit their wives after the two warn­ings for ill-con­duct and dis­loy­al­ty, it could very well be that Allah Almighty meant to com­mand the Mus­lims to leave” the home all togeth­er and desert their wives for a long time in a hope that the wives would then come back to their sens­es and repent.

    FUTHERMORE, IF HONOR KILLINGS IS INDEED DUE TO ISLAM WHY IS SUCH CULTURE NOT RAMPANT IN EASTERN MUSLIM COUNTRIES LIKE MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA ( LARGEST ISLAMIC POPULATION ), THIS FUTHER STRENGHTEN THE THEORY THAT HONOR KILLINGS IS CULTURAL MOTIVATED AND NOT RELIGION.

    BEFOREGOWOULD LIKE TO SHOW TO MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMSHADIS THAT SHOWS ISLAMS NOT ONLY PUNISH RAPIST BUT THE VICTIM OF THE RAPE IS CONSIDERED INNOCENT.

    When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_​be_​upon_​him) for prayer, a man attacked her and over­pow­ered (raped) her. She shout­ed and he went off, and when a man came by, she said : That (man) did such and such to me. And when a com­pa­ny of the Emi­grants came by, she said : That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had inter­course with her and brought him to her.

    She said : Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apos­tle of Allah (peace_​be_​upon_​him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sen­tence, the man who (actu­al­ly) had assault­ed her stood up and said : Apos­tle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

    He (the Prophet) said to the woman : Go away, for Allah has for­giv­en you. And about the man who had inter­course with her, he said : Stone him to death.

    He also said : He has repent­ed to such an extent that if the peo­ple of Med­i­na had repent­ed sim­i­lar­ly, it would have been accept­ed from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Num­ber 4366)”

    HOWEVER, A WORD OF CAUTION , IN ISLAMCASE MUST BE CONSIDEREDTRUE RAPE BEFORE SENTENCE IS BEING PASSED ON, FOR IF THERE IS ANY EVIDENCE THAT IS POINTING TO CONSENTED SEX BY THE WOMEN THEN BOTH SHALL BE PUNISHED ESPEACIALLY IN ACQUITANCE (DATE) RAPE.

  16. al-zarqawi Avatar
    al-zarqawi

    In the name of Allah, most gra­cious, most merciful.

    The qoute of Heigou.
    t is impos­si­ble to take any­one who uses your nom d’guerre seri­ous­ly on this sub­ject. You sim­ply prove my point. Mus­lims have not reject­ed ter­ror­ism. In fact they are proud of it. If they weren’t you would be rep­ri­mand­ed for that but you haven’t and you won’t be either. All the dis­claimers about Islam are mean­ing­less because by their actions Mus­lims show what they real­ly think.

    As to your com­ments, Islam has not been put on tri­al. Every West­ern leader has been very care­ful to point out that this is a war on ter­ror­ism, not on Islam, that Islam is peace-lov­ing and that it is being dis­tort­ed by a rad­i­cal minor­i­ty reject­ed by the main­stream. You can­not find a sin­gle com­ment by a sin­gle West­ern leader to the con­trary. So your angry, self-right­eous, vic­tim­hood is based on a lie.

    IF THAT IS THE CASE, WHY DID GEORGE BUSH CALL THE WAR ON TERORISM ASCRUSADE ? AND ITALIAN PM SILVIO BERLUSCONI CALLED ISLAM A RELIGION INFERIOR TO WESTERN CIVILISATION POST SEPT 11 ?
    WHAT KIND OF COMMENT ARE THESE ! ON THE CONTRARY YOU ALSO HAVE PROVE MY POINT OFTYPICAL WESTERN ISLAMOPHOBE WHO BLAMES ISLAM AND ALL MUSLIMS FOR ACTIONS BY SOME EXTREME MUSLIMS. THEREFORE ANTI-ISLAMIC COMMENTS BY WESTERN LEADERS IS NOTLIE ! WHENMEAN ISLAM IS PUT ON TRIAL IS DOES NOT ONLY MEAN THE WESTERN GOVERMENT, IT MEANT THE WESTERN SOCIETY ON THE WHOLE, THERE ARE SO MANY ANTI-ISLAMIC WEBSITES AND PROGRAMMES THAT ATTACK MUSLIMS POST-SEPT 11, CLAMING ISLAM INSPIRE TERRORISM AND SEPT 11. YOU ARE ONE EXAMPLE PRODUCTS OF SUCH PERJUDICE. YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS HERE IS CLEAR, WHENACCUSED OF WESTERN PREJUDICE TOWARDS ISLAM YOU COMMENTED THE ACT PLAYED BY WESTERN GOVERMENTS ONLY, WHILE DENYING THE INDIRECT MENTAL AND PHYSICAL ABUSE OF MUSLIMS AND ISLAM BY THE PREDOMINANTLY CHRISTIAN GENERAL POPULATION OF THE WEST. THE GREATEST TESTIMONY OF WESTERN SUPPORT IN ENGAGING ISLAM IS THE CONTINIUM OF THEIR ELECTION BY THE PEOPLE, ASISTED BY ACTS TERRORISM BY MINORITY MUSLIM FANATICS.

    The qoute of Heigou,
    Karadic was not a Chris­t­ian but a Ser­bian nation­al­ist and ten sec­onds of search­ing will find plen­ty of West­ern con­dem­na­tions of his ide­ol­o­gy. More­over ten sec­onds search­ing will find an utter and total rejec­tion by the West of him, his ide­ol­o­gy and what he did to the extent that the West is track­ing him and all his min­ions down to put them on tri­al for their crimes. Mus­lims do not do the same for their own ter­ror­ists (unless they attack Mus­lim coun­tries) and so the dif­fer­ence is clear. The West rejects such acts.

    KARADZIC IS BOTHCHRISTIAN AND SERBIAN NATIONALIST, WHILE THE WEST ON PAPER REJECTS AND CONDEMNS THE GENOCIDE LITTLE WAS DONE TO ACTUALLY STOP IT, NO MILITARY ACTION WAS TAKEN UPON SERBIA WHO MILITARILY SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE NOT EVENSACTION BY UN. UNTIL KARADZIC HAS BEEN PUTBULLET IN HIS HEAD LIKE DR.AZHARI OR BEING CAPTURED ALIVE YOUR CLAIM OF WESTERN AUTHORITIES OF HUNTING HIM IS NOTHING MORE BUT AN ACT OF HIPPOCRACY. AT LEAST MUSLIMS HAS GUNNED DOWN TERRORIST WHO ARE MUSLIMSAM YET TO SEE THE SAME TO BE DONE BY THE WEST.

    The qoute of Heigou,
    That is absurd — both attempts are mediocre. And yet dozens of Ser­bians have been sen­tenced to long jail terms for what they did in Bosnia. No Mus­lim coun­try has done much to help track down OBL with the minor excep­tion of Pak­istan which was forced to by threats of being bombed into the stone age. The West hates such crimes. Can you say the same about the Mus­lim world ?

    DO ANYONE KNOW WHERE OSAMA ACTUALLY IS ? ARE YOU SAYING THE MAIN REASON HIS STILL AT LARGE BECAUSE MUSLIMS GOVERMENT ESPEACIALLY PAKISTAN ARE HELPING HIM TO HIDE ? HE ISTERRORIST FOR GODSAKE AND KNOWS HOW TO HIDE AND MOVE BETWEEN THE BORDER OF PAKISTAN AND AFGHANISTAN WHOSE MOUNTAIN AND CAVE TERRAIN MAKES HIM AND REMAINING AL-QAEDA UNIT DIFFICULT TO DETECT. IF IT WAS EASY THE ALLIES SHOULD HAVE GOT TO HIM FIRST WHEN THEY INVADE AFGHANISTAN AND DESTROYED THE TALIBAN. PLZ DON’T BLAME THE FAILURE OF WESTERN MILITARY AND PUT MUSLIM NATIONS AS THE SCAPEGOAT FOR THIS. ONE MORE THING ON THE WAR ON TERROR, DID EVER THE US CONSULTED THE OIC ON HOW TO BATTLE TERRORISM ? NO ! MUSLIM NATION OPINION WERE NEVER WELCOME INSTEAD THE US MADEFAMOUS CLAIM EITHER YOU WITH US OR AGAINST US AND STARTED DRAFTINGONE SIDED WAR PLAN AND INVADING AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.IF THIS IS SUCHNOBLE CAUSE WHY DIDN’T OTHER NON-MUSLIM POWER LIKE RUSIA, CHINA AND FRANCE JOIN IN THE WAR ! WHAT IS THERE FOR MUSLIMS TO DO WHEN ALLIES HAVE ALREADY CAPTURED AND TORTURED ALL SUSPECTS OF AL-QAEDA IN GUANTANAMOBE AND OTHER SECRET CIA TORTURE CAMPS ! THIS ISCLAIM MADE BY BUSH HIMSELF ! AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION ISLAMIC COUNTRIES LIKE MALAYSIA HAS RETAIN FORMER MALAYSIAN MUSLIMS WHO WERE WITH THE TALIBAN TILL TODAY UNDER THE ISA ACT !

    The qoute of Heigou,

    There are no West­ern Cru­saders and to be sec­u­lar and Chris­t­ian is absurd. Silence ? Are you liv­ing in a cave ? Have you not noticed the mil­lions of peo­ple who took to the streets in the West to protest the War in Iraq ? Where have you been ? If Mus­lims kill Mus­lims in Iraq I do not see that as the West’s fault — who knew they would behave like this ?

    NOAM NOT IN LEAVING INCAVE AND YES THERE ARE WESTERN SOCIETY WHO ARE SENSIBLE (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU ) TO REALIZE THE CRUELTY BUT THERE ARE NOT MILLIONS, AND ON THE CONTRARY THERE ARE MANY MORE WHO ALSO SUPPORT PRESIDENT’S BUSH ACT OF WAR THATS WHY HE WAS ELECTED FOR THE 2ND TIME. THIS SHOWS MANY OF THE WEST STILL SUPPORT THIS UNJUST WAR. HOW SURE ARE YOU THAT THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE OF OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM DID NOT MAINLY CONTRIBUTE TO INNOCENT IRAQI CASUALTY ?

    The qoute of Heigou,
    Again how can you have missed the protests unless you are try­ing to ignore them ? Where are the Mus­lim protests about tor­ture in Sau­di Ara­bia or Jor­dan or Egypt, or Iran or Iraq before the inva­sion ? The police arrest­ed a Mul­lah in Pak­istan run­ning his own pri­vate tor­ture cham­ber just yes­ter­day. Total silence from the Mus­lim world. What is it about Amer­i­can tor­ture that is so much worse than Moroccan ?

    THATS BECAUSE THE ALLIES CLAIM THAT THEY ARE LIBERATING IRAQ, BUT IN REALITY THEY ARE JUST REPLACING SADDAM’S CRUEL REGIME WHICH MAKE THEM HIPPOCRATES. CAN YOU PLS TELL ME WHAT ARE THE TOTURES THAT YOU CLAIM HAPPENING IN IRAN, SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT AND IRAN ? THEN ALL OFSUDDEM WHY ARE YOU COMPARING AMERICAN TORTURE TO MORROCAN (WHICH NON OF THE EXAMPLES OF THE ABOVE)? WHATS WRONG TOO MUCH ANTI ISLAM SENTIMENT IN YOUR BRAIN ? I SEE AN ISLAMOPHOBE SEIZURE GOING HERE​.SO ARE YOU SAYING
    YOU SUPPORT THE TORTURE IN ABU GHARIB ?

    The qoute of heigou,
    or which they are on tri­al and if found guilty will be exe­cut­ed. When has any Mus­lim coun­try ever exe­cut­ed a Mus­lim for rap­ing a non-Mus­lim ? When has a Mus­lim sol­dier ever even been put on tri­al for such a thing ? The Syr­i­an Army raped in Lebanon. The Egyp­tians did in Yemen. The Pak­istani police do so every day. When was any­one tried for it ?

    TILL THE DAY PFC STEVE GREEN IS SENTENCE FOR EXECUTION PLS DON’T MAKE ANY CLAIMS OF AMERICAN JUSTICE, ANYWAY THE AMERICAN MARINE MEDIC WHO KILLED AN INNOCENT IRAQI WAS ONLY SENTENCE TO 10 YEARS IN PRISON. CAN YOU PLZ POINT OUT TO ME ANY AMERICAN SOLDIER WHO HAS BEEN EXECUTED FOR WAR CRIMES ? IN MALAYSIA, A MUSLIM MAN AHMAD NAJIP, HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO THE GALLOWS FOR RAPING AND KILLING CANNY ONGNON MUSLIM WOMEN.DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION (YOU CAN CHECK IN THE NET.) CAN YOU PLZ POINT TO ME ON YOUR SOURCES WHICH INFORMS ON RAPE DONE BY EGYPTIAN AND SYRIAN ARMY ?

    the qoute of heigou,
    I beg to dif­fer. Opin­ion poll after opin­ion poll shows that about half of all Mus­lims sup­port what he is doing. As for Islam, well Islam is what Mus­lims do. When did Mus­lims ever fail to sup­port the suc­cess­ful killing of inno­cent dhim­mis ? Can you point me to a book, by a his­to­ri­an or a schol­ar or a ruler or a nov­el­ist or any­one else, that has ever con­demned the suc­cess­ful use of force by Mus­lims against non-Mus­lims ? What­ev­er Islam says, far too many Mus­lims approve of such acts.

    THE ACT OF KILLING INNOCENT MUSLIM AND NON-MUSLIM CIVILIANS BY MUSLIMS AND NON MUSLIMS IS AN ACT MANY MUSLIMS HAVE CONDEMN AND THERE ARE MANY MUSLIMS SCHOLARS WHO SUPPORT THIS. ONE OF THEM IS USTAZ
    ABDUL RAHMAN MOHAMED IN HIS BOOK 30 EXTREMIST CHARACTERISTICS MENTIONED IN THE QURAN. AND MANY MUSLIM LEADERS HAVE ALSO CONDEMN THE ACT TERRORISM, THE LATE ARAFAT CONDEMN AND SHOWED EMPATHY FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ON THE EVE SEPI 11 ITSELF AND DON’T FORGET THERE WERE MUSLIMS TOO WHO RALLIED IN THE PROTEST AGAINST SEPT 11 IN THE US. FUTHERMORE WHICH OPINION POLL ARE YOU REFERING TO GENERALISED THAT MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD SUPPORT ACT OF TERRORISM ? WHICH STUDY ? FUTHERMORE MOST ISLAMIC TERROR CELL PRE TO SEPT 11 EXCEPT HAMAS HAS BEEN ALMOST OBLITERATED, COULD THAT HAVE BEEN ACHIVE IF THE MAJORITY MUSLIM LEADERS AND PEOPLE SUPPORT AND EMBRACE TERRRORISM. IF WE DID THE POPE WILL BE DECAPITATED BY NOW .

    the qoute of Heigou,
    Again we see you apol­o­gis­ing and excus­ing ter­ror­ism. This utter­ly con­tra­dicts what you have claimed and shows how tricky Mus­lims can be with words — you con­demn the tak­ing of inno­cent life but then claim what Bin Laden does is self-defence and jus­ti­fied. Bin Laden is not a Pales­tin­ian. How was he affect­ed ? He did not care about them for years and years as he lived in Afghanistan. Now he claims he does. You take that seri­ous­ly ? Besides I can triv­ial­ly prove you wrong — the East Tim­o­rese suf­fered vast­ly more than the Pales­tini­ans. They lost a fifth of their pop­u­la­tion. The equiv­a­lent of about 2.5 mil­lion Pales­tini­ans. Since 1987 the Israelis have killed just over 6000 Pales­tini­ans. Their suf­fer­ing is triv­ial com­pared to the East Tim­o­rese. And yet, not one sui­cide bomb­ing, not one café bomb­ing, not one behead­ing. On the oth­er hand the Mus­lims of Indone­sia are not oppressed and yet too many of them rape Chi­nese women, behead school girls, blow up night clubs in Bali and so on. Tell me how the Indone­sians are oppressed by the Bali­nese. What do these cas­es all have in com­mon : on the one hand Mus­lims com­mit acts of ter­ror­ism whether or not they are oppressed”, and on oth­er, non-Mus­lims do not even though they are vast­ly more oppressed than the Pales­tini­ans. Draw your own conclusion.

    IN 1975 EAST TIMORE WAS ABOUT TO BE ANOTHER COMMUNIST COUNTRY THEN INDONESIA BEINGPRO-DEMOCRACY NATION INVADED EAST TIMORE TO PREVENT THE DOMINO EFFECT FROM SPREADING. THE US AND AUSTRALIA BOTH WERE NOT AGAINST THIS IDEA AT THAT PERIOD. FROM BEING PRO-COMMUNIS, EAST TIMOR TURN COATS TO BE NATIONALIST AND STARTED MILITARY GURIELLA STRIKES AGAINST INDONESIAN MILITARY AND NON MILITARY TARGETS.ON THE CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU HAVE MENTION, THE EAST TIMORES DIDN’T GRACEFULLY ACCEPT INDONESIAN PRESENCE BUT ENGAGED IN GURIELLA WARFARE TACTICS SIMILAR TO THAT OF THE PLO AT THAT TIME.
    THUS FROM 1975 – 1999 BOTH SIDES COMMIT ATTROCITIES IN ORDER TO WIN THE WAR, SIMILAR TO THAT IN VIETNAM. IF THE TIMORESE WERE SUCH NONVIOLENT PEOPLE THE INDONESIAN MILITARY WOULD NOT HAVE SUFFERED 8OOO TO 10,000 CASUALTIES. THEY EXECUTED CAPTURED SOLDIERS, PRO-INDONESIAN TIMORESE, AND GOVERMENT OFFICIALS, BURN MOSQUES AND BOMB GOVERMENT BUILDINGS. BUT UNLIKE THE PLO THIER MOVEMENT ARE NOT CONSIDERED TERRORIST BUT FREEDOM FIGHTERS. THE CASUALTIES OF TIMORESE FROM DIRECT WAR ATTROCITIES TO COLLATERAL DAMAGE WERE 18,600 WHILENUMBER 84,200 PEOPLE DIED FROM STARVATION AND ILLNESS. THEN AGAIN 500,00O IRAQI CHILDREN ALSO DIED OF STARVATION DUE TO UN SACTIONS BUT HEIGOU IS GONNA SAY ITS SADDAM FAULT FOR INVADING KUWAIT. SO WHY DID THE TIMORESE ASSOCIATE WITH COMMUNISM IN THE FIRST PLACE ? IS IT FAIR TO SAY THEY DESERVE IT ? NO, SAME THING APPLIES TO THE PALESTINIAN AND IRAQIS WHO SUFFERED UNDER THE INVASION OF RESPECTIVE ALLIES AND ZIONIS INVASION. AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE SUFFERING OF PALESTINIAN AND IRAQIS ARE BEING FELT BY ALL MUSLIMS, SADLY SOME OF THEM CHOSE THE WRONG PATH OF TERRORISM TO EXPRESS THEIR REBELLION AGAINST THE ZIONIS AND ALLIES INVASION BY ATTACKING THIER CIVILIANS, THATS WHY YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE OSAMA AMD DR. AZHARI. IM WARNING YOU NOT TO SLYLY TWIST MY STATEMENT HERE, FORAM AGAINST THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE AND IRAQ BY THE WEST, BUT IT DOESN’T MEANSUPPORT AL-QAEDA OR ANY MUSLIM FANATICS AND ALL UNISLAMIC ACTS THAT THEY HAVE COMMITED.

    THE QOUTE OF HEIGOU,
    The West is not oppress­ing Mus­lims. Mus­lims oppress oth­er Mus­lims. Indeed the less the West has oppressed Mus­lims, the more ter­ror­ism. There was no ter­ror­ism in 1920 when most Mus­lims were ruled by the West. There is now when vir­tu­al­ly none are. Israel does not kill and destroy. It is a mod­er­ate and sen­si­ble coun­try. It also has not signed the Non-Pro­lif­er­a­tion Treaty. The Ira­ni­ans are dan­ger­ous and have. They have to obey their own freely cho­sen legal oblig­a­tions. When was Bin Laden’s fam­i­ly mas­sa­cred by any­one ? Or your hero Zarqawi’s ? The Bin Ladens grew rich off the West. The East Tim­o­rese died in huge num­bers but their response was civilised. They are also inde­pen­dent now. Can’t think why.

    ARE SURE WESTERN CHRISTIAN DID NOT OPPRESS MUSLIMS, WHEN ITALY INVADED LIBYA IN 1911, THE GREAT UMAR MUKHTAR LEDREBELLION AGAINST THE ITALIAN COLONIALS JUST BEFORE THAT ERA.MORE THAN 125,OOO LIBYAN WOMEN, MEN AND CHILDREN WERE PUT TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS AMD 23 FROM THESE PERISH. ISRAEL DOES NOT KILL AND DESTROY ? YOU ARE INDEEDLIAR, WASN’T IT YOUR OWN WORDS THAT SAY (Since 1987 the Israelis have killed just over 6000 Palestinians).THERE ARE INDEEDSENSIBLE NATION IN BATTLING HIZBOLLAH IN SOTHERN LEBONAN THEY ALSO ORGANIZED AIRSTRIKE IN NOTHERN LEBONAN, YA THATS SO THEM RESONABLE ? ARE YOU ALSO TRYING TO COMPLY THAT IF IRAN DIDN’T SIGN NON-PROFILATION TREATY THEY COULD BUILD NUCLEAR POWER AND WARHEADS AND AMERICA AND ALLIES CAN ACCEPT THAT AND LEAVE IRAN ALONE ? NAH, ITS JUST WESTERN HIPPOCRACY HERE. ONE MORE THING ZARQAWI HAPPENS TO BE MY MIDDLE NAME GIVEN BY MY PARENTS, SO DON’T TRY ANYTHING PERSONAL HERE AND BACK OFF. IF YOU EAST TIMORESE GURIELLA MOVEMENT TO BE CIVILISED THEN SO ARE THE INSURGENTS IN IRAQ AND ISRAEL.

    THE QOUTE OF HEIGOU,
    Straw­man. I nev­er claimed they did. I would claim that by asso­ci­at­ing with ter­ror­ists like Bin Laden through their deeds, they share the guilt. Just as I think by chos­ing your name you align your­self with ter­ror­ists and so shoudl be treat­ed as such. I do not think that Mus­lims are not born that way. Too often they choose to sup­port ter­ror­ism and not peace.

    YOU SEE HEIGOU THERE ARE MUSLIMS OUT THERE WITH THE NAME OF ZARQAWI NOT ONLY ABU MUSAB AL-ZARQAWI WHO IS RECENTLY KILLED BY THE ALLIES. SO YOUR ARE SAYING EVERYONE WITH THE NAME ZARQAWI SHOULD BE TREATED LIKETERRORIST ? YOU ARE INDEED AN ISLAMAPHOBE BY DRAWING SUCH BASELESS CONCLUSION AS THIS.
    I do not think that Mus­lims are not born that way. Too often they choose to sup­port ter­ror­ism and not peace. JUST READ THIS STATEMENT AGAIN, I CLAIM THAT WESTEN WORLD CLAIMS EVERY MUSLIM IS BORNTERRORIST, AND HEIGOU DOES NOT THINK THAT MUSLIMS ARE NOT BORN AS TERRORIST WHICH ALSO MEANS HE THINKS EVERY MUSLIM IS BORNTERRORIST. OH MY GODPSYCHOTIC ISLAMAPHOBE IS SEEN HERE.

    the qoute of heigou,
    Iraq did not com­ply with UN res­o­lu­tions and failed to prove it has dis­armed. In fact Sad­dam claimed to still have such weapons. His own gen­er­als thought he did. His fault. Per­fect­ly rea­son­able and justified.

    I STILL REMEMBER WATCHING THE LAST INTERVIEW CHANNEL NEWS ASIA WITH SADDAM HUSSIN BEFORE THE IRAQI FREEDOM TOOK PLACE, UNLIKE WHAT WAS REPORTED BY CNN SADDAM NEVER CLAIM TO HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESRTUCTIONS IN WHICH HE STRESS ON, BUT MOST PEOPLE DIDN’T BELIEVE HIM, IN THE END THIS TYRANT WAS TELLING THE TRUTH. LETS USE HEIGOU’S LOGIC ON ISRAEL, THEY TOO HAVE VIOLATED UN RESULOTIONS, INVADED LEBONAN AMD EGYPT ONCE AND HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE NUCLEAR WAR HEADS, WAR ON THEM BY THE ARABS PERFECTLY RESONABLE AND JUSTIFIED.

    THE QOUTE OF HEIGOU,
    Sor­ry but Bashir got what ? How long did he serve ? Gunned down ? He killed him­self. Tell me again how oppressed by the West the Malaysian Azhari was ? You sim­ply prove my point — as long as they killed Chris­tians in Ambon no one cared. They killed a few Mus­lim Indone­sians in Bali and hit the tourist trade, the Indone­sian gov­ern­ment did care. But not much. They still haven’t exe­cut­ed any­one. You are sim­ply ignor­ing the evi­dence — NATO had a huge raid in 2005 but just missed Karadz­ic but got his son. They have offered a huge boun­ty for him and put enor­mous pres­sure on his wife.

    AND YOU ARE SIMPLY TWISTING THE EVIDENCE, YESRAID IS CONDUCTED BY NATO THEY GOT HIS SON BUT REALEASED HIM 10 DAYS LATER AND PRESSURE HIS FAMILY BUT NATO TOOK 6 YEARS TO ORGANIZEPATHETIC ATTEMP THAT MEANT TO FAIL, IT TOOK THE ALLIES LESS THAN 3 MONTHS TO INVADE AFGHANISTAN AND DESTROY ALQAEDA AND THE TALIBAN. SEE THE DIFFRENCE ON SWIFTNESS OF ACTION. AMBON WASRELIGIOUS RIOT NOT CAUSED BY THE INDONESIAN GOVERMENT BUT BY CHRISTIAN TERRORIST (RECENTLY EXECUTED) WHO STARED THE RIOT BY KILLING MUSLIMS AND BURNING THE AMBON MOSQUE, CHRISTIAN ALL OVER THE WORLD KEPT QUIET INITIALLY WHEN THE RIOT STARTED BECAUSE MORE MUSLIMS WERE BEING KILLED AND DRIVEN OFF THIER HOMES, ONLY WHEN SWIFT MUSLIM RETIALION OCCURED, AND THE CHRISTIAN TERRORIST BEING COUNTER MASSACRED IT BECAMECHRISTIAN CRISIS. WHAT ABOUT THE MASSACRE DONE BY CHRISTIAN DAYAK’S OF KALIMANTAN WHO DECAPITATED THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM MADURANESE, WHY DIDN’T YOU MENTION THIS ? WHY, YOU DIDN’T THINK CHRISTIAN’S COULD CUT OFF HEADS OF LITTLE CHILDREN ? BUT OF COURSE IN YOUR OPINION ONLY MUSLIMS ARE CAPABLE OF VIOLENCE. LIKE YOURSELF WHO HATES ISLAM BASED ON PSYCHOTIC ILLUSIONS, THEY ARE MUSLIMS EXTREMIST WHO ARE EQUALLY PSYCHOTIC LIKE YOU, WHO THINKS THEY CAN FIND SALVATION AND GET BACK AT THE ALLIES BY KILLING INNOCENT ALLIED NATION CIVILIANS.

    THE QOUTE OF HEIGOU,
    There are vir­tu­al­ly no non-Mus­lim ter­ror­ists left. It is actu­al­ly equal to Jihad — Mus­lims are attack­ing non-Mus­lims wher­ev­er they can. Not the Cru­sades which were, any­way, entire­ly in self defence. This is why when Mus­lims were weak and ruled by the West there was no ter­ror­ism. Now they have oil mon­ey and are stronger, they are fol­low­ing the Sixth Pillar.

    ONLYPSYCHOTIC PERSON LIKE YOU WILL SAY THE CRUSADES ARE AN ACT OF SELF DEFENCE, IN 1099 CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS AFTER TAKING JERUSALEM MASSACRED ALL MUSLIM AND JEWISH POPULATION INCLUDING WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO ARE NON-COMBATANTS, FOR SOMEONE WHO THINKS EVERY MUSLIM ISBORN TERRORIST, IM NOT SUPRISE THIS PSYCHO CAME UP WITH THE CONCLUSION THE CRUSADES ARE SELF DEFENCE, WELL IS THAT THE LOGIC THEN ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS ALSO IN SELF DEFENCE EQUEL TO THE CRUSADE. THE SCARY LOGIC OF HEIGOU.AND THERE ARE STILL CHRISTIAN TERRORIST LEFT, RIGHT AFTER THE EXECUTION OF THE CHRISTIAN AMBON TERRORIST, TWO INNOCENT MUSLIM MEN WERE KILLED BY THE REAMNENTS OF AMBON CHRISTIAN TERRORIST MOVEMENT.

    THE FINAL QOUTE OF HEIGOU,
    Again you pro­duce the para­noia, lies and jus­ti­fi­ca­tions for ter­ror­ism which prove my point. Too many Mus­lims, prob­a­bly the vast major­i­ty I expect, do not reject ter­ror­ism but embrace it.

    DID I ? NAH , ITS JUST HEIGOU’S DELLUSION BELIEVE, I NEVER DID MENTIONSTATEMENT OF APPROVING THE ACTS OF TERRORISM UNLIKE HIM WHO HAS NOTED I do not think that Mus­lims are not born that way. Too often they choose to sup­port ter­ror­ism and not peace.(THAT WAY= TERRORIST)

  17. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    Richard said on 10 Octo­ber 2006:“I think you are all as bad as each oth­er. Every­body is now, as usu­al, say­ing in effect Yeah and then your guys did this and our guys said that” etc etc.. The give-away is that the posts are get­ting longer and longer. I can almost see the flecks of foam at the cor­ners of your mouths. This is the stuff that leads firm­ly to World War III.”

    Real­ly ? Per­haps you might like to tell me what reli­gion I am. I mean, I am the main poster of those long posts and if you can see the flecks of foam” in my mouth as I say some­thing about our guys”, you should be able to tell me who my” guys are.

    Richard said on 10 Octo­ber 2006:“Be ashamed. All of you.”

    Pot. Ket­tle. You know the rest.

    Richard said on 10 Octo­ber 2006:“And in my opin­ion there are high­ly respect­ed teach­ers’ in both Chris­tian­i­ty and Islam who need lock­ing up.”

    Real­ly ? Can you point out to me a few of the things that the high­ly respect­ed” lead­ers of any oth­er reli­gion apart from Islam have done late­ly ? I’ll agree there are Chris­t­ian nut­cas­es but they are hard­ly high­ly respect­ed” and there are Jew­ish nut­cas­es but they are fringe dwellers even with­in the Jew­ish world. But I would deny there are many nut­cas­es in any oth­er reli­gion worth men­tion­ing as this is a monothe­is­tic thing, not a reli­gious thing.

    Richard said on 10 Octo­ber 2006:“In the mean­time would some­body, with­out quot­ing out of con­text, be inter­est­ed in a sim­ply the­o­log­i­cal debate on the essen­tial dif­fer­ences in religion?”

    Well the Pope tried that did­n’t he ? At some point peo­ple do things because they think their reli­gion either tells them to or at least allows it. The reli­gion may not even tell them to. It may even be opposed to it, but there is usu­al­ly a jus­ti­fi­ca­tion in there some­where. Take hon­or killings for instance. It is nev­er enough to dis­cuss the theology.

  18. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    I think you are all as bad as each oth­er. Every­body is now, as usu­al, say­ing in effect Yeah and then your guys did this and our guys said that” etc etc.. The give-away is that the posts are get­ting longer and longer. I can almost see the flecks of foam at the cor­ners of your mouths. This is the stuff that leads firm­ly to World War III.

    Be ashamed. All of you.

    In my under­stand­ing, Jesus, not the cru­saders, not Bush or any of the mil­i­tary lead­ers, sim­ply says You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the oth­er also ; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well ; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.” Matthew 5.3841

    And Bud­dhism has :

    Hatred nev­er appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eter­nal.” Dhamma­pa­da 1.5

    The near­est I have found to this in Islam is :

    Let there be no injury and no requital.” (Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 32) and
    By the grace of Allah, you are gen­tle towards the peo­ple ; if you had been stern and hard-heart­ed, they would have dis­persed from round about you.” (The Holy Qur’an, Chap­ter 3, Verse 159)

    but I don’t believe that these are equiv­a­lent, and it looks to me as if this con­sti­tutes the essen­tial dif­fer­ence between the two religions.

    Why when dis­cussing the­ol­o­gy does every­body insist on judg­ing reli­gions by deeds, not the under­ly­ing orig­i­nal teach­ings ? Humans very rarely suc­ceed in tru­ly fol­low­ing the orig­i­nal teach­ings, but sure­ly the teach­ings are more impor­tant than any­thing. And the accre­tions of extra mean­ing added by high­ly respect­ed teach­ers’ down the ages are in my view high­ly sus­pect. Even mod­ern Bud­dhism has most­ly drift­ed from the orig­i­nal scrip­tures. And in my opin­ion there are high­ly respect­ed teach­ers’ in both Chris­tian­i­ty and Islam who need lock­ing up.

    In the mean­time would some­body, with­out quot­ing out of con­text, be inter­est­ed in a sim­ply the­o­log­i­cal debate on the essen­tial dif­fer­ences in religion ?

  19. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“When a mus­lim like Osama ben laden, is accused of com­mit­ing act of ter­ror like SEPT 11 caus­ing 2819 casu­al­ties, His reli­gion (ISLAM) and prophet is put to trial.”

    It is impos­si­ble to take any­one who uses your nom d’guerre seri­ous­ly on this sub­ject. You sim­ply prove my point. Mus­lims have not reject­ed ter­ror­ism. In fact they are proud of it. If they weren’t you would be rep­ri­mand­ed for that but you haven’t and you won’t be either. All the dis­claimers about Islam are mean­ing­less because by their actions Mus­lims show what they real­ly think.

    As to your com­ments, Islam has not been put on tri­al. Every West­ern leader has been very care­ful to point out that this is a war on ter­ror­ism, not on Islam, that Islam is peace-lov­ing and that it is being dis­tort­ed by a rad­i­cal minor­i­ty reject­ed by the main­stream. You can­not find a sin­gle com­ment by a sin­gle West­ern leader to the con­trary. So your angry, self-right­eous, vic­tim­hood is based on a lie.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“However when a non-mus­lims like Bosn­ian Serb leader Radovan Karadz­ic com­mits Geno­cide of more than 18,000 mus­lims, I do not see Chris­tian­i­ty being blamed for it in west­ern media nei­ther do I see the the sec­u­lar west­ern chris­t­ian nations apo­la­g­iz­ing to the mus­lim world.”

    Karadic was not a Chris­t­ian but a Ser­bian nation­al­ist and ten sec­onds of search­ing will find plen­ty of West­ern con­dem­na­tions of his ide­ol­o­gy. More­over ten sec­onds search­ing will find an utter and total rejec­tion by the West of him, his ide­ol­o­gy and what he did to the extent that the West is track­ing him and all his min­ions down to put them on tri­al for their crimes. Mus­lims do not do the same for their own ter­ror­ists (unless they attack Mus­lim coun­tries) and so the dif­fer­ence is clear. The West rejects such acts.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Both men have done crime against human­i­ty and are still at large, the only dif­fer­ence is Osama is cur­rent­ly being hunt­ed down in great effort while Radovan even though con­vict­ed on paper in the Human rights court, efforts to cap­ture him has been noth­ing but medicore.”

    That is absurd — both attempts are mediocre. And yet dozens of Ser­bians have been sen­tenced to long jail terms for what they did in Bosnia. No Mus­lim coun­try has done much to help track down OBL with the minor excep­tion of Pak­istan which was forced to by threats of being bombed into the stone age. The West hates such crimes. Can you say the same about the Mus­lim world ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“You see when sec­u­lar chris­t­ian Cru­saders kill mus­lims who are not even involved in ter­ror­ism there is also silence, why do you have to say for more than 200,000 casu­al­i­ties of Iraqis dur­ing oper­a­tion free­dom and allied occupation ?”

    There are no West­ern Cru­saders and to be sec­u­lar and Chris­t­ian is absurd. Silence ? Are you liv­ing in a cave ? Have you not noticed the mil­lions of peo­ple who took to the streets in the West to protest the War in Iraq ? Where have you been ? If Mus­lims kill Mus­lims in Iraq I do not see that as the West­’s fault — who knew they would behave like this ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“or the tor­ture in Abu gharib prison ?”

    Again how can you have missed the protests unless you are try­ing to ignore them ? Where are the Mus­lim protests about tor­ture in Sau­di Ara­bia or Jor­dan or Egypt, or Iran or Iraq before the inva­sion ? The police arrest­ed a Mul­lah in Pak­istan run­ning his own pri­vate tor­ture cham­ber just yes­ter­day. Total silence from the Mus­lim world. What is it about Amer­i­can tor­ture that is so much worse than Moroccan ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“the mur­der and rape of 14 year girl Iraqi girl and her whole fam­i­ly by Amer­i­can troops ?”

    For which they are on tri­al and if found guilty will be exe­cut­ed. When has any Mus­lim coun­try ever exe­cut­ed a Mus­lim for rap­ing a non-Mus­lim ? When has a Mus­lim sol­dier ever even been put on tri­al for such a thing ? The Syr­i­an Army raped in Lebanon. The Egyp­tians did in Yemen. The Pak­istani police do so every day. When was any­one tried for it ?

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Islam has nev­er and will nev­er sup­port the killing of inno­cents non — com­bat­ants even at war there­fore the act of Osama is nev­er con­sid­ered JIHAD by the major­i­ty mus­lim world.”

    I beg to dif­fer. Opin­ion poll after opin­ion poll shows that about half of all Mus­lims sup­port what he is doing. As for Islam, well Islam is what Mus­lims do. When did Mus­lims ever fail to sup­port the suc­cess­ful killing of inno­cent dhim­mis ? Can you point me to a book, by a his­to­ri­an or a schol­ar or a ruler or a nov­el­ist or any­one else, that has ever con­demned the suc­cess­ful use of force by Mus­lims against non-Mus­lims ? What­ev­er Islam says, far too many Mus­lims approve of such acts.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“The rise of Mus­lim ter­ror­ist is not because of Islam but rather the effects of years of denied com­bine vio­lent oppre­sion by the more pow­er­ful Zion­ist régime and sec­u­lar cru­sade nations against mus­lims, and out of their frus­tra­tion have turn to unIs­lam­ic War strate­gies to counter them.”

    Again we see you apol­o­gis­ing and excus­ing ter­ror­ism. This utter­ly con­tra­dicts what you have claimed and shows how tricky Mus­lims can be with words — you con­demn the tak­ing of inno­cent life but then claim what Bin Laden does is self-defence and jus­ti­fied. Bin Laden is not a Pales­tin­ian. How was he affect­ed ? He did not care about them for years and years as he lived in Afghanistan. Now he claims he does. You take that seri­ous­ly ? Besides I can triv­ial­ly prove you wrong — the East Tim­o­rese suf­fered vast­ly more than the Pales­tini­ans. They lost a fifth of their pop­u­la­tion. The equiv­a­lent of about 2.5 mil­lion Pales­tini­ans. Since 1987 the Israelis have killed just over 6000 Pales­tini­ans. Their suf­fer­ing is triv­ial com­pared to the East Tim­o­rese. And yet, not one sui­cide bomb­ing, not one café bomb­ing, not one behead­ing. On the oth­er hand the Mus­lims of Indone­sia are not oppressed and yet too many of them rape Chi­nese women, behead school girls, blow up night clubs in Bali and so on. Tell me how the Indone­sians are oppressed by the Bali­nese. What do these cas­es all have in com­mon : on the one hand Mus­lims com­mit acts of ter­ror­ism whether or not they are oppressed”, and on oth­er, non-Mus­lims do not even though they are vast­ly more oppressed than the Pales­tini­ans. Draw your own conclusion.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Before ask­ing mus­lims world to reform, stop oppress­ing mus­lims first. After free­ing” Iraq, the sec­u­lar chris­t­ian cru­sade have began dis­cussing to impose sac­tions against Iran while Israel is allowed to have as much nuclear war­heads and kill and destroy mus­lim lands. The so call killers are end prod­uct of west­ern cru­el­ty. Let me ask you ques­tion Heigou, if your whole fam­i­ly is being mas­sa­cred by invad­ing armies can you still be a wussie and talk about world peace ? I wont be suprise you would end­ed up being the so call killer” you despise.”

    The West is not oppress­ing Mus­lims. Mus­lims oppress oth­er Mus­lims. Indeed the less the West has oppressed Mus­lims, the more ter­ror­ism. There was no ter­ror­ism in 1920 when most Mus­lims were ruled by the West. There is now when vir­tu­al­ly none are. Israel does not kill and destroy. It is a mod­er­ate and sen­si­ble coun­try. It also has not signed the Non-Pro­lif­er­a­tion Treaty. The Ira­ni­ans are dan­ger­ous and have. They have to obey their own freely cho­sen legal oblig­a­tions. When was Bin Laden’s fam­i­ly mas­sa­cred by any­one ? Or your hero Zar­qaw­i’s ? The Bin Ladens grew rich off the West. The East Tim­o­rese died in huge num­bers but their response was civilised. They are also inde­pen­dent now. Can’t think why.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Please don’t apply the con­cept christinity’s orig­i­nal sin here, just because some mus­lims are sus­pect­ed of Sept 11, it does not mean every mus­lim or mus­limah born on this plan­et car­ries the bur­den of respon­si­bil­i­ty of being a ter­ror­ist until appo­la­g­iz­ing to the west.”

    Straw­man. I nev­er claimed they did. I would claim that by asso­ci­at­ing with ter­ror­ists like Bin Laden through their deeds, they share the guilt. Just as I think by chos­ing your name you align your­self with ter­ror­ists and so shoudl be treat­ed as such. I do not think that Mus­lims are not born that way. Too often they choose to sup­port ter­ror­ism and not peace.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Now I under­stand why mus­lim casu­aly means lit­tle, all mus­lims have been brand­ed as ter­ror­ist until proven otherwise.”

    Since when ? The West has been extreme­ly care­ful to do no such thing. They will not even allow pro­fil­ing in air­ports. We are, after all, civilised. We do not attack mosques and gun down Mus­li­mas because a Imam has said some­thing we do not like.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Where is the point that sup­port the action of mil­i­tary action ?”

    Iraq did not com­ply with UN res­o­lu­tions and failed to prove it has dis­armed. In fact Sad­dam claimed to still have such weapons. His own gen­er­als thought he did. His fault. Per­fect­ly rea­son­able and justified.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“The fact of the west has no part­ner for peace” is bull­shit, many mus­lims coun­tries have respond­ed and many sus­pect­ed mil­i­tants had been nabbed or killed in shootout between local secu­ri­ty forces.”

    Well no they have not. Those that have rad­i­cals they were already fight­ing, still fight them. Those that were not, are not unless they are forced to by the Amer­i­cans. As Pak­istan showed by its truce with al-Qae­da in Waziristan.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“In Indone­sia, Dr. Azhari the man that lead the bali bomb­ings have been gunned down by Indone­sian police while his accom­plice Mat Top is now on the run and also being hunt­ed down. I don’t see the CIA or Mi‑6 hunt­ing down Radovan Karadz­ic even though he is war crim­i­nal fugitive.”

    Sor­ry but Bashir got what ? How long did he serve ? Gunned down ? He killed him­self. Tell me again how oppressed by the West the Malaysian Azhari was ? You sim­ply prove my point — as long as they killed Chris­tians in Ambon no one cared. They killed a few Mus­lim Indone­sians in Bali and hit the tourist trade, the Indone­sian gov­ern­ment did care. But not much. They still haven’t exe­cut­ed any­one. You are sim­ply ignor­ing the evi­dence — NATO had a huge raid in 2005 but just missed Karadz­ic but got his son. They have offered a huge boun­ty for him and put enor­mous pres­sure on his wife.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“The west­ern war on ter­ror is equal to the Cru­sades where every ter­ror­ist are actu­al­ly mus­lims and non-mus­lim ter­ror­ist espea­cial­ly chris­t­ian ones walks away.”

    There are vir­tu­al­ly no non-Mus­lim ter­ror­ists left. It is actu­al­ly equal to Jihad — Mus­lims are attack­ing non-Mus­lims wher­ev­er they can. Not the Cru­sades which were, any­way, entire­ly in self defence. This is why when Mus­lims were weak and ruled by the West there was no ter­ror­ism. Now they have oil mon­ey and are stronger, they are fol­low­ing the Sixth Pillar.

    al-zar­qawi said on 7 Octo­ber 2006:“Fighting against inva­sion and oppre­sion in the bat­tle­field is not ter­ror­ism but an act of jus­tice and self defence, for per­se­cu­tion is worse than slaughter.”

    Again you pro­duce the para­noia, lies and jus­ti­fi­ca­tions for ter­ror­ism which prove my point. Too many Mus­lims, prob­a­bly the vast major­i­ty I expect, do not reject ter­ror­ism but embrace it.

  20. al-zarqawi Avatar
    al-zarqawi

    In the name of Allah most gra­cious, most merciful.

    The qoute of HeiGou,

    Actu­al­ly they have not. It is true that in the wake of 9 – 11 a lot of Mus­lim lead­ers rushed to say this is not Islam, Islam is the reli­gion os peace” but that was just in the wake of the attack. You can see what might have been going through their minds by Muhammed Atta’s father who denied that his son could pos­si­bi­ly have tak­en part in the attack until the heat was off and then he said that he wished he had more sons who could do the same. When Mus­lims kill oth­er Mus­lims, Mus­lims protest. When they kill kafirs there is a not­i­ca­ble silence. When Mus­lims do con­demn” ter­ror they usu­al­ly are engag­ing in half-truths and decep­tion — they’ll blame the West, they’ll deny it was Mus­lims and they will hide behind clever words like inno­cent”. You can see what Mus­lims real­ly think from peo­ple like Qaradawi who says sui­cide bomb­ings in Israel are not only per­mit­ted but fard.

    MY response,
    When a mus­lim like Osama ben laden, is accused of com­mit­ing act of ter­ror like SEPT 11 caus­ing 2819 casu­al­ties, His reli­gion (ISLAM) and prophet is put to tri­al. How­ev­er when a non-mus­lims like Bosn­ian Serb leader Radovan Karadz­ic com­mits Geno­cide of more than 18,000 mus­lims, I do not see Chris­tian­i­ty being blamed for it in west­ern media nei­ther do I see the the sec­u­lar west­ern chris­t­ian nations apo­la­g­iz­ing to the mus­lim world. Both men have done crime against human­i­ty and are still at large, the only dif­fer­ence is Osama is cur­rent­ly being hunt­ed down in great effort while Radovan even though con­vict­ed on paper in the Human rights court, efforts to cap­ture him has been noth­ing but medicore. You see when sec­u­lar chris­t­ian Cru­saders kill mus­lims who are not even involved in ter­ror­ism there is also silence, why do you have to say for more than 200,000 casu­al­i­ties of Iraqis dur­ing oper­a­tion free­dom and allied occu­pa­tion ? or the tor­ture in Abu gharib prison ? the mur­der and rape of 14 year girl Iraqi girl and her whole fam­i­ly by Amer­i­can troops ? Islam has nev­er and will nev­er sup­port the killing of inno­cents non — com­bat­ants even at war there­fore the act of Osama is nev­er con­sid­ered JIHAD by the major­i­ty mus­lim world. The rise of Mus­lim ter­ror­ist is not because of Islam but rather the effects of years of denied com­bine vio­lent oppre­sion by the more pow­er­ful Zion­ist régime and sec­u­lar cru­sade nations against mus­lims, and out of their frus­tra­tion have turn to unIs­lam­ic War strate­gies to counter them.

    The qoute of HeiGou,

    Change. Action. Any­thing. Mus­lim soci­eties pro­duced and are still pro­duc­ing these killers. Not West­ern ones. I would like to see some thought as to why that is and some seri­ous reform to pre­vent it hap­pen­ing again.

    My response,
    Before ask­ing mus­lims world to reform, stop oppress­ing mus­lims first. After free­ing” Iraq, the sec­u­lar chris­t­ian cru­sade have began dis­cussing to impose sac­tions against Iran while Israel is allowed to have as much nuclear war­heads and kill and destroy mus­lim lands. The so call killers are end prod­uct of west­ern cru­el­ty. Let me ask you ques­tion Heigou, if your whole fam­i­ly is being mas­sa­cred by invad­ing armies can you still be a wussie and talk about world peace ? I wont be suprise you would end­ed up being the so call killer” you despise.

    The qoute of HeiGou,
    When has any Mus­lim (a) offered an apol­o­gy or (b) been coerced into doing so ? No doubt that last bit is true but then as there is no oth­er way of deal­ing with the vast major­i­ty of Mus­lims — there being no apol­o­gy, no co-oper­a­tion, no change and no reform — mil­i­tary action is the only option the West has. As there is no part­ner for peace” on the Mus­lim side, what oth­er options does the West have ?

    Please don’t apply the con­cept chris­tin­i­ty’s orig­i­nal sin here, just because some mus­lims are sus­pect­ed of Sept 11, it does not mean every mus­lim or mus­limah born on this plan­et car­ries the bur­den of respon­si­bil­i­ty of being a ter­ror­ist until appo­la­g­iz­ing to the west. Now I under­stand why mus­lim casu­aly means lit­tle, all mus­lims have been brand­ed as ter­ror­ist until proven oth­er­wise. So tell me Heigou after the Allies rav­aged Iraq, where is the weapon of mass destruc­tion ? The link between al-qae­da and Iraqi gov­er­ment ? Where is the point that sup­port the action of mil­i­tary action ? The fact of the west has no part­ner for peace” is bull­shit, many mus­lims coun­tries have respond­ed and many sus­pect­ed mil­i­tants had been nabbed or killed in shootout between local secu­ri­ty forces. In
    Indone­sia, Dr. Azhari the man that lead the bali bomb­ings have been gunned down by Indone­sian police while his accom­plice Mat Top is now on the run and also being hunt­ed down. I don’t see the CIA or Mi‑6 hunt­ing down Radovan Karadz­ic even though he is war crim­i­nal fugitive.

    The west­ern war on ter­ror is equal to the Cru­sades where every ter­ror­ist are actu­al­ly mus­lims and non-mus­lim ter­ror­ist espea­cial­ly chris­t­ian ones walks away. Its just a dif­fer­ent name but its the same game as the cru­sades, and the zio­n­is and sec­u­lar cru­sad­er nations are out to clense the earth from mus­lims through geno­cide and apposta­sy just as how they cleanse Jerusalem in 1099. The signs are there, at this age we have an anti-islam­ic Pope and Cru­sad­er Amer­i­can Pres­i­dent. Unite my mus­lims broth­ers and sis­ters regard­less of race, remem­ber Salahud­din before fac­ing the cru­sades bat­tle with both extreme and lib­er­al mus­lims, only then he could unite mus­lims in a just war fought with under prop­er Islam­ic ways, only then Allah gave vic­to­ry to Islam. Nobody wants war, but look­ing at the cur­rent Amer­i­can For­eign pol­i­cy of Islam­o­pho­bia, world peace is becom­ing more of a fairy tale rather then real­i­ty. Fight­ing against inva­sion and oppre­sion in the bat­tle­field is not ter­ror­ism but an act of jus­tice and self defence, for per­se­cu­tion is worse than slaughter.

  21. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    John said on 4 Octo­ber 2006:Matthew 5:17 :
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets : I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

    Jesus is a God, accord­ing to Bible itself. So we could also say that the vers­es in OT are noth­ing but the guide­lines” giv­en by Jesus. Chris­tians have no way out of this mess!”

    Actu­al­ly they triv­ial­ly do. Jesus does not say, after all, He has come to enforce the let­ter of the law. He says He has come to ful­fil” the law which is usu­al­ly inter­pret­ed as replac­ing the strict, but moral­ly emp­ty, let­ter of the law, with its true inter­nal mean­ing. So He does not stone the woman but says to her Go and sin no more”.

    Ten sec­onds talk­ing to a Chris­t­ian or three min­utes read­ing any Chris­t­ian lit­er­a­ture would have told you this.

  22. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    John, if I fol­low you, your argu­ment is that

    a) The Old Tes­ta­ment con­tains the words of the prophets, which some­times seem violent
    b) Jesus says he is here to ful­fil the prophe­cies of the prophets
    c) Jesus is God
    d) There­fore Jesus as God is endors­ing the vio­lence of the Old Testament.

    First I don’t see why ful­fill­ing the prophe­cies involves endors­ing all the vio­lence of the Old Testament.

    Sec­ond­ly, dif­fer­ent sects of Chris­tian­i­ty vary from those who believe that every sin­gle word in the Old and New Tes­ta­ments are lit­er­al­ly the revealed word of God, to those who believe that they are writ­ten by men, and were cho­sen from many oth­er sim­i­lar doc­u­ments by the Emper­or Con­stan­tine to sat­is­fy the often polit­i­cal aspi­ra­tions of rival reli­gious pro­tag­o­nists at the coun­cil of Nicea in the year 325. To me that sec­ond view is more logical.

    But of course there are Chris­t­ian fun­da­men­tal­ists who say that as God wrote the Old Tes­ta­ment, and it seems to con­done vio­lence, and God as Jesus ful­filled’ the prophets, vio­lence must be OK. (I won­der who actu­al­ly told them that God wrote it, and how did that per­son know?)

    But if as a ratio­nal human you read Gospels as an account of the life and teach­ings of Jesus you do most emphat­i­cal­ly NOT see vio­lence ever. It is incom­pat­i­ble with the teach­ings, which is what makes the exam­ple of Jesus special.

    Your sen­tence Chris­tians have no way out of this mess” seems out of place. In my opin­ion a good Chris­t­ian (which I am not, and despite their protes­ta­tions I believe that Bush and Blair are not) should a) Love his fel­low man, b) if he is attacked, not seek revenge, c) do his best to live a good life. To which mess do you refer ? The Mid­dle East ? Amer­i­ca’s med­dling with things they don’t under­stand ? The after­math of the British Empire ? The exis­tence of Israel ? Seems to me that sus­tained non-vio­lence might actu­al­ly be worth try­ing ! It worked for Mahata­ma Ghan­di ! It might even be work­ing for the IRA !

    In con­clu­sion, you said Jesus is a God’. If the text you refer to is Psalm 46, v.5 Be still then, and know that I am God” then Bud­dhists have a com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent inter­pre­ta­tion any­way ! Which only goes to show that you can argue a mul­ti­plic­i­ty of things from a sin­gle short text.

  23. John Avatar
    John

    Hi Richard ! Here is my reply !

    » In fact nowhere in the gospels will you find Jesus ask­ing peo­ple to kill peo­ple or even to be vio­lent : in fact that is total­ly against Chris­t­ian teaching.

    Matthew 5:17 :
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets : I am not come to destroy, but to ful­fill.

    Jesus is a God, accord­ing to Bible itself. So we could also say that the vers­es in OT are noth­ing but the guide­lines” giv­en by Jesus. Chris­tians have no way out of this mess !

  24. Richard Avatar
    Richard

    John quot­ed St Luke 19 v27 where Jesus says : But those ene­mies of mine who did not want me to be king over them – bring them here and kill them in front of me.” I was so sur­prised by this that I looked up the ref­er­ence. The quote is actu­al­ly a line in a para­ble’ (teach­ing sto­ry) told by Jesus, and Jesus is not ask­ing for peo­ple to be killed at all. In fact nowhere in the gospels will you find Jesus ask­ing peo­ple to kill peo­ple or even to be vio­lent : in fact that is total­ly against Chris­t­ian teach­ing — despite the actions of many so-called Chris­tians through the ages.

    Rib says that Jesus went men­tle in the tem­ple” (sic), but there is no evi­dence or tra­di­tion that he phys­i­cal­ly hurt any­one — just their com­mer­cial arrange­ments which he felt were out of place in the temple.

    I am not a Chris­t­ian, Mus­lim, Sikh, Bud­dhist, Hin­du, or any­thing (my wife is Bud­dhist) but I believe that the tra­di­tion­al inter­pre­ta­tions of Jesus’ teach­ings are valu­able. So much so that I have reg­u­lar­ly told my chil­dren that if they can’t decide the cor­rect course of action at any time they should try to think what Jesus would have done’. What the Bud­dha would have done’ would give an almost iden­ti­cal result. I would how­ev­er be most reluc­tant to advise them to think what the Prophet would have done’, as I don’t believe I could guar­an­tee that the results would be non-vio­lent. I would wel­come a reply to this post as I am gen­uine­ly inter­est­ed in oth­ers opinions.

  25. HeiGou Avatar
    HeiGou

    Yusuf said on 29 Sep­tem­ber 2006:“Quite frankly, the vast major­i­ty of Mus­lims have indeed con­demned the extreme minori­ties time and time again.”

    Actu­al­ly they have not. It is true that in the wake of 9 – 11 a lot of Mus­lim lead­ers rushed to say this is not Islam, Islam is the reli­gion os peace” but that was just in the wake of the attack. You can see what might have been going through their minds by Muhammed Atta’s father who denied that his son could pos­si­bi­ly have tak­en part in the attack until the heat was off and then he said that he wished he had more sons who could do the same. When Mus­lims kill oth­er Mus­lims, Mus­lims protest. When they kill kafirs there is a not­i­ca­ble silence. When Mus­lims do con­demn” ter­ror they usu­al­ly are engag­ing in half-truths and decep­tion — they’ll blame the West, they’ll deny it was Mus­lims and they will hide behind clever words like inno­cent”. You can see what Mus­lims real­ly think from peo­ple like Qaradawi who says sui­cide bomb­ings in Israel are not only per­mit­ted but fard.

    Yusuf said on 29 Sep­tem­ber 2006:“What more, I ask, is expect­ed from us?”

    Change. Action. Any­thing. Mus­lim soci­eties pro­duced and are still pro­duc­ing these killers. Not West­ern ones. I would like to see some thought as to why that is and some seri­ous reform to pre­vent it hap­pen­ing again.

    Yusuf said on 29 Sep­tem­ber 2006:“In con­trast to the way of West­ern­ers it is the Mus­lims who are cease­less­ly coerced to offer apolo­gies for the actions of a mere few, are they not ? Fur­ther­more, if my home­land was being bom­bard­ed by Amer­i­cans and their allies, trust me, the last thing on my mind would be an apology.”

    When has any Mus­lim (a) offered an apol­o­gy or (b) been coerced into doing so ? No doubt that last bit is true but then as there is no oth­er way of deal­ing with the vast major­i­ty of Mus­lims — there being no apol­o­gy, no co-oper­a­tion, no change and no reform — mil­i­tary action is the only option the West has. As there is no part­ner for peace” on the Mus­lim side, what oth­er options does the West have ?

    Yusuf said on 29 Sep­tem­ber 2006:“What fright­ens us Mus­lims most­ly is the fact that almost every West­ern­er has become hyp­no­tized by our fear-mon­ger­ing media that offers noth­ing but plain hyper­bole. The aver­age laity sim­ply tune in to CNN on a reg­u­lar basis end­ing up lit­er­al­ly brain­washed by the repeat­ed­ly over-exag­ger­at­ed reports and (trite) words they see and hear. My advice : a bal­anced approach is always a great idea.”

    And yet the West­erm media goes over­board to be sen­si­tive to Mus­lims and Islam. Your state­ment is not only not true, it comes from a com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent plan­et. Hyper­bole ? When has a West­ern media out­let ever said any­thing oth­er than Islam is the reli­gion of peace”? When has CNN ever said any­thing oth­er than ter­ror­ism is a work of a small minor­i­ty of rad­i­cals who do not rep­re­sent Islam ? Com­pare this with the way that Judaism or Chris­tian­i­ty is pre­sent­ed on any Arab media out­let. Take this gem from Dubai TV

    Ramad­han Al-Fay­touri : I am the guardian of my sis­ter. … If who­ev­er infect­ed this girl want­ed to kill her, he would have killed her with poi­son. But their pur­pose was to spread this plague in this city and this peo­ple. Our ene­my is fight­ing us. In Pales­tine, it is strik­ing our chil­dren with mis­siles, in Iraq, it uses destruc­tion, in Egypt, it uses can­cer, and in Libya it uses the AIDS virus. Our ene­my does not sleep, but I am sad to say that we do. The war against Islam con­tin­ues, as was evi­dent in the recent pub­li­ca­tions that mocked the Prophet Muham­mad. This is a war, just as they want­ed it to be.”

    Where has a West­ern TV out­let ever accused Mus­lims of try­ing to mur­der West­ern­ers through can­cer or AIDS ?

    Yusuf said on 29 Sep­tem­ber 2006:”(BTW, excel­lent arti­cle by Karen Armstrong)”

    Actu­al­ly it was utter­ly awful. As this snip­pet of TV shows the real hatred is in the Mus­lim world, not the West. We can­not afford Mus­lim big­otry any­more, it kills, and Ms Arm­strong ought to know better.

  26. Yusuf Avatar
    Yusuf

    jmcd,

    Your pre­sump­tions deceive you, friend.

    Quite frankly, the vast major­i­ty of Mus­lims have indeed con­demned the extreme minori­ties time and time again. What more, I ask, is expect­ed from us ? In con­trast to the way of West­ern­ers it is the Mus­lims who are cease­less­ly coerced to offer apolo­gies for the actions of a mere few, are they not ? Fur­ther­more, if my home­land was being bom­bard­ed by Amer­i­cans and their allies, trust me, the last thing on my mind would be an apology.

    What fright­ens us Mus­lims most­ly is the fact that almost every West­ern­er has become hyp­no­tized by our fear-mon­ger­ing media that offers noth­ing but plain hyper­bole. The aver­age laity sim­ply tune in to CNN on a reg­u­lar basis end­ing up lit­er­al­ly brain­washed by the repeat­ed­ly over-exag­ger­at­ed reports and (trite) words they see and hear. My advice : a bal­anced approach is always a great idea.

    (BTW, excel­lent arti­cle by Karen Armstrong)

  27. John Avatar
    John

    » Jesus had told his fol­low­ers to love their ene­mies, not to exter­mi­nate them. ”
    Then What about this ? :) »
    He replied, I tell you that to every­one who has, more will be giv­en, but as for the one who has noth­ing, even what he has will be tak­en away. But those ene­mies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. ( Luke 19:26 – 28)”

  28. jmcd Avatar
    jmcd

    Essen­tial­ly what the West sees is an appar­ent­ly small band of Islam­ic extrem­ists try­ing to wage a holy war against every­one who is not of their mind set and the rest ; pre­sum­ably the vast major­i­ty of the Mus­lim com­mu­ni­ty doing and say­ing lit­tle against them. Grad­u­al­ly peo­ple begin to won­der if Islam is indeed a reli­gion of peace where is the out­rage at all of the mur­der in the name of God.

  29. rib Avatar
    rib

    Jesus had told his fol­low­ers to love their ene­mies, not to exter­mi­nate them. ”

    only when he was in a weak position.his ter­ror­ist para­bles agais­nt the phar­is­es are wors­er than get­ting punched in the face.he went men­tle in the temple.

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